Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Soloist]

It comes at an odd time on the heels of China agreeing not to supply Russia with weapons. A deal the US made.

China has more to gain by not supplying Russia with weapons.

The war will eventually end and there will literally be HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars of construction contracts to rebuild Ukraine with western money, money sanctioned from Russia, etc. China is not stupid and Chinese firms will want to get in on those billions of dollars of contracts to rebuild dams, highways, railroads, power plants, subways, etc. That is what they do. And getting into Ukraine reconstruction and forming joint-partnerships with Ukrainian firms will give them a foothold into Europe, especially if Ukraine joins the EU which seems likely.

The Chinese are not stupid and they play a long game. If they overtly ally with Russia in this war they will be closing the door to access to post-war Ukraine rebuilding dollars and lose their foothold in Europe. They can do the math. The EU is has an economy with a GDP in the 16 trillion range. Russia is a 10th of that.

At the same time, they gain just as much the longer the war lasts.

[Jazman]

This may be taking a side turn... but been wanting to ask you all some questions and get your take...
I read pretty widely, but maybe not as much from a variety of sources as I should in regard to this Russian/Ukranian (local newspaper, BBC, Politico, The Dispatch and then some fled-Russian, English-speaking Russians on youtube). So, I pretty much believe Russia/Putin is the aggressor / primary bad actor in the whole situation, but I do have sympathy for the Russian people and feel bad about how this negatively affects their country (as well as Ukraine! and the whole region really)
But I have a friend, who is actually more liberal/progessive than I am in some areas, who has been giving me this counter-narrative that is basically this (ie he would believe Chomsky is correct) "Chomsky incorrectly observes that Western countries have refused to negotiate with Putin and are now “fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian.” - Matt Johnson
He mentions other names as well, like Ray McGovern, Mearsheimer, Scott Ritter, Greenwald, et al... Strangely for me at least, is that, in the height of the Iraq War, I would have given an agreeing ear to all of these guy's critiques of American empire and over-militarization, etc. But besides echoing the Chomsky notion above, he says all the big Western media is blatantly lying to us about the state of the war; in other words, Ukraine is losing very badly, Russia is doing WAY better than reported and its a all a gigantic conspiratorial ruse to keep the US military industrial complex humming in high gear on the backs of our poor saps/slaves the Ukranians who are being annihilated 7-1 or something close to that. And the war is All the fault of the EU / NATO / USA...

So, what do you make of this far-left perspective? (I guess I can grant them marks for being consistent...?) I have not read much from them, nor have I gone looking for their perspective. (especially not youtube as I don't want the algorithm feeding them to me). To be honest I'm a tad skeptical of these guys (and of my friend who listens to them a lot). I agree that our alliances and military industrial complex are problems... I want the war to end today. I want peace and flourishing for Ukranians and Russians... But I'm not sure what these far left pundit/talking heads get out of ignoring Putin and bashing the EU/NATO/US/Ukraine... Furthermore it doesn't seem to comport with at least some of the reality on the ground... Russia has been losing ground - not Ukraine. Ukraine took back territory. I can see it on a map with my own eyes... So how is Russia the overwhelming winner so far? I don't get how that's supposedly all just made up by the western media in order to service some EU/Nato/USA conspiracy?

[mike]

But besides echoing the Chomsky notion above, he says all the big Western media is blatantly lying to us about the state of the war; in other words, Ukraine is losing very badly, Russia is doing WAY better than reported and its a all a gigantic conspiratorial ruse to keep the US military industrial complex humming in high gear on the backs of our poor saps/slaves the Ukranians who are being annihilated 7-1 or something close to that. And the war is All the fault of the EU / NATO / USA...

I don't have trouble with the idea that we don't know the whole story, and we obviously hear a version that is favorable to Ukraine and the West. But if the Ukrainians were being annihilated in those numbers the war would hardly be the closely fought contest that it is.

Russia has been losing ground - not Ukraine. Ukraine took back territory. I can see it on a map with my own eyes... So how is Russia the overwhelming winner so far? I don't get how that's supposedly all just made up by the western media in order to service some EU/Nato/USA conspiracy?

That's where I'm at. The results are what matter, and at this time there is no overwhelming victory on either side. So it's a slugfest with nobody really winning as of yet, other than that Ukraine has basically foiled Russia's attempt to take over the whole of its territory.

[PeterG]

But besides echoing the Chomsky notion above, he says all the big Western media is blatantly lying to us about the state of the war; in other words, Ukraine is losing very badly, Russia is doing WAY better than reported and its a all a gigantic conspiratorial ruse to keep the US military industrial complex humming in high gear on the backs of our poor saps/slaves the Ukranians who are being annihilated 7-1 or something close to that. And the war is All the fault of the EU / NATO / USA...

I don't have trouble with the idea that we don't know the whole story, and we obviously hear a version that is favorable to Ukraine and the West. But if the Ukrainians were being annihilated in those numbers the war would hardly be the closely fought contest that it is.

Russia has been losing ground - not Ukraine. Ukraine took back territory. I can see it on a map with my own eyes... So how is Russia the overwhelming winner so far? I don't get how that's supposedly all just made up by the western media in order to service some EU/Nato/USA conspiracy?

That's where I'm at. The results are what matter, and at this time there is no overwhelming victory on either side. So it's a slugfest with nobody really winning as of yet, other than that Ukraine has basically foiled Russia's attempt to take over the whole of its territory.

Agreed. If Russia were really so successful, wouldn't the war be over by now?

[temporal1]

mike:
I don't have trouble with the idea that we don't know the whole story, and we obviously hear a version that is favorable to Ukraine and the West. But if the Ukrainians were being annihilated in those numbers the war would hardly be the closely fought contest that it is.

mike:
That's where I'm at. The results are what matter, and at this time there is no overwhelming victory on either side.

So it's a slugfest with nobody really winning as of yet, other than that Ukraine (*with massive funds+resources from the west*)
has basically foiled Russia's attempt to take over the whole of its territory.

It’s possible to lose battles, yet win the war. “it’s not over until it’s over.”

Ukraine is not equal to Russia, Ukraine+The West is greater-than. Far greater-than.
So, to observe, “gee, it’s a stalemate,” is not exactly honest.

Is any other country or alliance funding Russia in comparable ways? China?? (Not to my knowledge.)
(i believe) any such threat is considered tantamount to WWIII (is it not)?

Certainly, both sides propagandize.
However, considering outside investments, this “should be” a route for (cough) “Ukraine,” not a slugfest.
In human reasoning terms. There is always more than human reasoning.

i question Zelensky’s accounting skills.
He’s been gifted untold sums+resouces. His every breathless appearance demands “MORE” and “NOW.”
Who are the geniuses overseeing the billions? Their experiences, biographies, resumes?

In history, in scriptures, it’s not always the giants who win. In this case, there is some question about which side is the giant.
Propagandists don’t abide by pesky questions.

[Szdfan]

Agreed. If Russia were really so successful, wouldn't the war be over by now?

If Russia was so successful, Prigozhin wouldn’t have attempted his little coup and challenged Putin’s power. That’s a clear sign that something is going wrong.

[Soloist]

Agreed. If Russia were really so successful, wouldn't the war be over by now?

If Russia was so successful, Prigozhin wouldn’t have attempted his little coup and challenged Putin’s power. That’s a clear sign that something is going wrong.

Something still doesn’t add up about that, but I haven’t been following it closely.

[Szdfan]

Agreed. If Russia were really so successful, wouldn't the war be over by now?

If Russia was so successful, Prigozhin wouldn’t have attempted his little coup and challenged Putin’s power. That’s a clear sign that something is going wrong.

Something still doesn’t add up about that, but I haven’t been following it closely.

A lot about it doesn’t add up or make sense. It’s bizarre. However, I don’t think it would have happened if the war was going well for Russia.

[temporal1]

Agreed. If Russia were really so successful, wouldn't the war be over by now?

If Russia was so successful, Prigozhin wouldn’t have attempted his little coup and challenged Putin’s power. That’s a clear sign that something is going wrong.

Something still doesn’t add up about that, but I haven’t been following it closely.

i don’t see either side as being “so successful.” considering the West’s mega-investments, this should have been over within a few weeks. nothing adds up. Prigozhin was 150 miles from Moscow. was this planned extortion? if so, it appears it worked. not for Ukraine or Russia, for Prigozhin.

there was no surprise about Russia’s initial invasion. everyone all around knew. they were all prepared.
this was not Pearl Harbor or 9-11-2001.

Zelensky was so prepared, he immediately “blew the whistle” for massive aid, which was ready+waiting.

DJT has said he would have this resolved within 24 hours of presidency. imho, his word is actually as good as/better than biden’s.

[Soloist]

there was no surprise about Russia’s initial invasion. everyone all around knew. they were all prepared.
this was not Pearl Harbor or 9-11-2001.

Zelensky was so prepared, he immediately “blew the whistle” for massive aid, which was ready+waiting.

Well… when you mass troops on a border, it’s generally thought likely.
There is some evidence that we knew an attack was coming for a location, we may not have known it was Pearl Harbor though.