Critical Race Theory and systemic inequalities

[Bootstrap]

Spawned from the Russ Douthat thread ....

I don't agree with the sentiment here -- I think MLK's non-violent movement was extremely successful at bringing change, but it didn't solve everything and some of the inequities that are baked into the system continued.

[Ken]

I think the larger problem is that while YOU and perhaps Douthat might be seeking some sort of intellectual synthesis that seeks to find the truth in our historical record. I don't believe that is what a majority of people engaging in this wider cultural debate are seeking. Quite the opposite. It is about waging a wider culture war and winning votes, viewers, and dollars, not truth seeking.

Right. I'm interested in this question I posed to SZD:

I don't agree with the sentiment here -- I think MLK's non-violent movement was extremely successful at bringing change, but it didn't solve everything and some of the inequities that are baked into the system continued.

I wonder though what you see as the extant baked-in inequities and what ought to be done about them specifically?

To get at the practical, real-world inequities seems to be a way to get past the intellectual impasse that arises not from a craven and cynical quest for electoral power on either side but rather a deeply held belief about the truth or falseness of Critical Race Theory. I find it a noxious, fantabulous assertion that has serious potential to end in violence and destruction. JBG and SZD feel I'm missing something and find it useful - none of us desire political power. All of us see real inequalities and lingering injustices in the black community. Perhaps getting at what they are exactly and what might be their root cause or what might be potential solutions would be a way to move beyond "CRT right or wrong, useful or dangerous?"

I honestly think that about 95% of what I have read recently about CRT is not really about CRT at all but rather a general discomfort with the subject of racism and attempts to discuss it in schools or elsewhere. As a teacher I would say the following:

1. Yes, there is a whole industry of educational consultants out there peddling all manner of nonsense to schools and school districts. I’ve been teaching for 15 years and every single year there has been various ridiculous forms of in service training that i have been subjected to by high-priced consultants of various sorts. The latest stuff on diversity is just the most recent manifestation. Growth mindset, Danielson Framework, Domain rubrics, NGSS (in science), Common Core (math and ELA), etc. etc. Some of the stuff out there on diversity is useful. A lot of it is garbage. Something about education seems to bring out these sorts of “consultants” like moths to the flame. Mostly you have to just pick and choose what is useful. Same as for every other educational fad I have ever seen. The stuff on diversity is only the latest manifestation of this trend. It is largely because administrators are lazy and would rather hire some turn-key outside consultants to run their in session training sessions than do the hard work of putting together meaningful lessons themselves. Teaching is hard stuff, whether you are teaching teachers or teaching students.

2. Yes, racism is a real problem in our society. Both in schools and elsewhere. And it manifests itself not only individually (individual people being racist) but also systemically to the extent that institutions have racism baked into their design even if the people operating within them aren’t necessarily racist themselves. Anyone who denies this is being willfully blind to the society in which we live.

3. Difficult problems have difficult solutions. And racism within our school system is one of the most difficult of all problems to deal with because the roots are deeply intertwined with other related problems like poverty, urban planning, housing, local control, property values, taxation, and many other intractable issues. I have been dealing with this subject for a long time and I have no easy answers. I have lots of ideas that might push things in the right direction in small incremental ways, But no pat solutions.

Here where I live (and in much of the rest of the country) systemic racism in education is mostly expressed through housing policy and jurisdictional boundaries. Wealthy people simply refuse to allow poorer people to live within their midst and enjoy the benefits of the newer, better, and more posh public schools that exist in wealth communities through gerrymandering of school district lines and development patterns. Curriculum standards for teachers or students on the subject of “diversity” does nothing to address any of that.

[Bootstrap]

The New York Times had a really interesting article on one specific example:

Why Many Police Traffic Stops Turn Deadly

The police officers who issued those warnings had stopped the motorists for common offenses: swerving across double yellow lines, speeding recklessly, carrying an open beer bottle. None of the men were armed. Yet within moments of pulling them over, officers fatally shot all three.

The deaths are among a series of seemingly avoidable killings across the United States. Over the past five years, a New York Times investigation found, police officers have killed more than 400 drivers or passengers who were not wielding a gun or a knife, or under pursuit for a violent crime — a rate of more than one a week.

Most of the officers did so with impunity. Only five have been convicted of crimes in those killings, according to a review of the publicly reported cases. Yet local governments paid at least $125 million to resolve about 40 wrongful-death lawsuits and other claims. Many stops began with common traffic violations like broken taillights or running a red light; relative to the population, Black drivers were overrepresented among those killed.

But it's not because police enjoy shooting blacks, it's not because police are racist. This article goes into some reasons why, in depth. Which is generally what you need to do if you want to understand a problem and fix it.

[Josh]

I think the larger problem is that while YOU and perhaps Douthat might be seeking some sort of intellectual synthesis that seeks to find the truth in our historical record. I don't believe that is what a majority of people engaging in this wider cultural debate are seeking. Quite the opposite. It is about waging a wider culture war and winning votes, viewers, and dollars, not truth seeking.

Right. I'm interested in this question I posed to SZD:

I wonder though what you see as the extant baked-in inequities and what ought to be done about them specifically?

To get at the practical, real-world inequities seems to be a way to get past the intellectual impasse that arises not from a craven and cynical quest for electoral power on either side but rather a deeply held belief about the truth or falseness of Critical Race Theory. I find it a noxious, fantabulous assertion that has serious potential to end in violence and destruction. JBG and SZD feel I'm missing something and find it useful - none of us desire political power. All of us see real inequalities and lingering injustices in the black community. Perhaps getting at what they are exactly and what might be their root cause or what might be potential solutions would be a way to move beyond "CRT right or wrong, useful or dangerous?"

I honestly think that about 95% of what I have read recently about CRT is not really about CRT at all but rather a general discomfort with the subject of racism and attempts to discuss it in schools or elsewhere. As a teacher I would say the following:

1. Yes, there is a whole industry of educational consultants out there peddling all manner of nonsense to schools and school districts. I’ve been teaching for 15 years and every single year there has been various ridiculous forms of in service training that i have been subjected to by high-priced consultants of various sorts. The latest stuff on diversity is just the most recent manifestation. Growth mindset, Danielson Framework, Domain rubrics, NGSS (in science), Common Core (math and ELA), etc. etc. Some of the stuff out there on diversity is useful. A lot of it is garbage. Something about education seems to bring out these sorts of “consultants” like moths to the flame. Mostly you have to just pick and choose what is useful. Same as for every other educational fad I have ever seen. The stuff on diversity is only the latest manifestation of this trend. It is largely because administrators are lazy and would rather hire some turn-key outside consultants to run their in session training sessions than do the hard work of putting together meaningful lessons themselves. Teaching is hard stuff, whether you are teaching teachers or teaching students.

2. Yes, racism is a real problem in our society. Both in schools and elsewhere. And it manifests itself not only individually (individual people being racist) but also systemically to the extent that institutions have racism baked into their design even if the people operating within them aren’t necessarily racist themselves. Anyone who denies this is being willfully blind to the society in which we live.

3. Difficult problems have difficult solutions. And racism within our school system is one of the most difficult of all problems to deal with because the roots are deeply intertwined with other related problems like poverty, urban planning, housing, local control, property values, taxation, and many other intractable issues. I have been dealing with this subject for a long time and I have no easy answers. I have lots of ideas that might push things in the right direction in small incremental ways, But no pat solutions.

Here where I live (and in much of the rest of the country) systemic racism in education is mostly expressed through housing policy and jurisdictional boundaries. Wealthy people simply refuse to allow poorer people to live within their midst and enjoy the benefits of the newer, better, and more posh public schools that exist in wealth communities through gerrymandering of school district lines and development patterns. Curriculum standards for teachers or students on the subject of “diversity” does nothing to address any of that.

Have you considered that once enough lower class people move into an area that:
- it will no longer be newer / better, but will start to have the same problems other lower class areas do
- people who can afford to will move away to escape these problems
- people who can’t will be stuck and stay, and form the new lower class

Generally speaking, social problems are not due to a lack of wealth.

[Ken]

Have you considered that once enough lower class people move into an area that:
- it will no longer be newer / better, but will start to have the same problems other lower class areas do
- people who can afford to will move away to escape these problems
- people who can’t will be stuck and stay, and form the new lower class

Generally speaking, social problems are not due to a lack of wealth.

Yes Josh. I have considered your argument. It is the exact same one that the racist supporters of Jim Crow segregation used to justify 100 years worth of segregation in our society. So you stand in good company.

[Josh]

Have you considered that once enough lower class people move into an area that:
- it will no longer be newer / better, but will start to have the same problems other lower class areas do
- people who can afford to will move away to escape these problems
- people who can’t will be stuck and stay, and form the new lower class

Generally speaking, social problems are not due to a lack of wealth.

Yes Josh. I have considered your argument. It is the exact same one that the racist supporters of Jim Crow segregation used to justify 100 years worth of segregation in our society. So you stand in good company.

Are you sure about that? Wealth neighbourhoods exist in Nigeria. They have gated security and their own private water, electric generation, etc.

Strict income and net worth requirements are in place to get in.

So let’s leave race out of this.

I’ve mostly lived in places full of lower income people. I prefer to live below my means. But this does mean those places have lower income culture, which is unavoidable when the place is full of lower class people.

Their chosen activities can include things like buying scratch off lottery tickets, using illegal drugs, acquiring junk cars, encouraging low academic performance in their children, encouraging their children to fight other children, and on and on. (Race is irrelevant - these seem to be universal norms for the lower classes.)

Some people prefer to live in a society where they are surrounded by neighbours with nice cars, who don’t tolerate bad academic performance from their children, and so forth. (I am not one of them.) But it seems strange how much aggression you have towards such people.

[Ken]

Have you considered that once enough lower class people move into an area that:
- it will no longer be newer / better, but will start to have the same problems other lower class areas do
- people who can afford to will move away to escape these problems
- people who can’t will be stuck and stay, and form the new lower class

Generally speaking, social problems are not due to a lack of wealth.

Yes Josh. I have considered your argument. It is the exact same one that the racist supporters of Jim Crow segregation used to justify 100 years worth of segregation in our society. So you stand in good company.

Are you sure about that? Wealth neighbourhoods exist in Nigeria. They have gated security and their own private water, electric generation, etc.

Strict income and net worth requirements are in place to get in.

So let’s leave race out of this.

I’ve mostly lived in places full of lower income people. I prefer to live below my means. But this does mean those places have lower income culture, which is unavoidable when the place is full of lower class people.

Their chosen activities can include things like buying scratch off lottery tickets, using illegal drugs, acquiring junk cars, encouraging low academic performance in their children, encouraging their children to fight other children, and on and on. (Race is irrelevant - these seem to be universal norms for the lower classes.)

Some people prefer to live in a society where they are surrounded by neighbours with nice cars, who don’t tolerate bad academic performance from their children, and so forth. (I am not one of them.) But it seems strange how much aggression you have towards such people.

I don't have hostility to anyone Josh.

I'm just pointing out that your arguments are the same identical arguments that generations of racists have used to support every form of segregation. And in the context of education, they are especially the same arguments used by folks who want to keep "those people" out of OUR public schools.

[Josh]

Yes Josh. I have considered your argument. It is the exact same one that the racist supporters of Jim Crow segregation used to justify 100 years worth of segregation in our society. So you stand in good company.

Are you sure about that? Wealth neighbourhoods exist in Nigeria. They have gated security and their own private water, electric generation, etc.

Strict income and net worth requirements are in place to get in.

So let’s leave race out of this.

I’ve mostly lived in places full of lower income people. I prefer to live below my means. But this does mean those places have lower income culture, which is unavoidable when the place is full of lower class people.

Their chosen activities can include things like buying scratch off lottery tickets, using illegal drugs, acquiring junk cars, encouraging low academic performance in their children, encouraging their children to fight other children, and on and on. (Race is irrelevant - these seem to be universal norms for the lower classes.)

Some people prefer to live in a society where they are surrounded by neighbours with nice cars, who don’t tolerate bad academic performance from their children, and so forth. (I am not one of them.) But it seems strange how much aggression you have towards such people.

I don't have hostility to anyone Josh.

I'm just pointing out that your arguments are the same identical arguments that generations of racists have used to support every form of segregation. And in the context of education, they are especially the same arguments used by folks who want to keep "those people" out of OUR public schools.

I don’t really care what racists think or said long before I was even alive.

I’m simply saying that higher class people don’t want to live surrounded by single wide trailers, junk cars, domestic disputes, meth labs, scrap meds gatherers, and pitbulls. Nor do they want to deal with trying to share a school with such people.

And frankly, I can understand why. Why would someone want to send their kids to school with people whose parents think stealing cats to make a living and dealing drugs is OK?

[Ken]

Are you sure about that? Wealth neighbourhoods exist in Nigeria. They have gated security and their own private water, electric generation, etc.

Strict income and net worth requirements are in place to get in.

So let’s leave race out of this.

I’ve mostly lived in places full of lower income people. I prefer to live below my means. But this does mean those places have lower income culture, which is unavoidable when the place is full of lower class people.

Their chosen activities can include things like buying scratch off lottery tickets, using illegal drugs, acquiring junk cars, encouraging low academic performance in their children, encouraging their children to fight other children, and on and on. (Race is irrelevant - these seem to be universal norms for the lower classes.)

Some people prefer to live in a society where they are surrounded by neighbours with nice cars, who don’t tolerate bad academic performance from their children, and so forth. (I am not one of them.) But it seems strange how much aggression you have towards such people.

I don't have hostility to anyone Josh.

I'm just pointing out that your arguments are the same identical arguments that generations of racists have used to support every form of segregation. And in the context of education, they are especially the same arguments used by folks who want to keep "those people" out of OUR public schools.

I don’t really care what racists think or said long before I was even alive.

I’m simply saying that higher class people don’t want to live surrounded by single wide trailers, junk cars, domestic disputes, meth labs, scrap meds gatherers, and pitbulls. Nor do they want to deal with trying to share a school with such people.

And frankly, I can understand why. Why would someone want to send their kids to school with people whose parents think stealing cats to make a living and dealing drugs is OK?

Yes Josh. You have perfectly described poor, blue collar, and immigrant families in this country.

And the attitude that you describe is exactly why systemic racism is a real thing. Today. Not just in the distant past.

Sheesh...

[Josh]

I don't have hostility to anyone Josh.

I'm just pointing out that your arguments are the same identical arguments that generations of racists have used to support every form of segregation. And in the context of education, they are especially the same arguments used by folks who want to keep "those people" out of OUR public schools.

I don’t really care what racists think or said long before I was even alive.

I’m simply saying that higher class people don’t want to live surrounded by single wide trailers, junk cars, domestic disputes, meth labs, scrap meds gatherers, and pitbulls. Nor do they want to deal with trying to share a school with such people.

And frankly, I can understand why. Why would someone want to send their kids to school with people whose parents think stealing cats to make a living and dealing drugs is OK?

Yes Josh. You have perfectly described poor, blue collar, and immigrant families in this country.

And the attitude that you describe is exactly why systemic racism is a real thing. Today. Not just in the distant past.

Sheesh...

Yet I’m not talking about race or racism at all. I am talking purely about class. And what I described specifically above is not about immigrants or about non-white people.

This isn’t “systemic racism”. I don’t want my kids to go to school with drug dealers. Is that a bad thing?