History of Vaccine Mandates

[Josh]

Unprecedented in my lifetime. The fact America was authoritarian in the 1940s doesn’t mean we should be today; they also used to round up people by ethnic group and put them in camps.

Which is it Josh? Is America improving or declining. I've heard both from you.

Some things are better, some are worse. I generally don't think harsh authoritarianism is a good thing, though.

[Josh]

Unprecedented in my lifetime. The fact America was authoritarian in the 1940s doesn’t mean we should be today; they also used to round up people by ethnic group and put them in camps.

So what is the answer? Is there a validity to the concerns that people have about these mandates. Some think that we're just screaming for our rights. But is there a reason to suspect there is an agenda. Is there a reason to have distrust for the government? I can see the arguments for both sides of this personally observing what I am now you certainly wouldn't want to pass on a life-threatening virus to someone would you?

Who do people trust right now? Where is their confidence?

Ancient Israel had in its law how to handle those afflicted with leprosy and they were put in their own camps. Why was that? It was highly contagious and there was no cure. Until Jesus came along-. It was not considered cruel to put them in the camps it had to protect those that didn't have leprosy. These were instructions given by the Lord.

We have witnessed evil agendas in these types of mandates in the past we don't know if there's hidden agendas we don't know if there's a global agenda many people are highly suspicious of that and produce reasons why.

This isn't really about "trust the government". It's more about "trust the mainstream medical establishment" or "trust Dr. Fauci". I have reason to be sceptical and don't blindly trust everything the mainstream medical establishment says; after all, in the 1940s, doctors told us cigarettes were safe and good for your throat; more recently, the medical establishment has told us trans fats, low fat diets, and high carb / sugary diets are good for you. It has become apparent the opposite of these things is true.

I think it's okay to simply have a "wait and see" approach when a novel medical procedure comes out. I feel confident taking medicines that have existed for decades. We know if they cause harm or not. Something that's brand new is very different. That's also how I feel about vaccines, which are simply a particular kind of medicine.

The authoritarianism behind mandates is a different matter. We would think it very odd if everyone was mandated to take a certain pill every day. Especially if you had to prove you were taking some pill every day in order to keep your job. Or if everyone had to take vitamins every day. It might even be the case that doing so would keep you healthier, but I am against the use of force used in such a way.

[Bootstrap]

Keep in mind the same law was used to sterilize people against their will.

Sure, but the courts decided that was not legal.

And they decided that requiring vaccinations is. In 1905, 11 states had vaccination laws. Smallpox was a real danger at the time, Henning Jacobson refused to be vaccinated. The Supreme Court decided that keeping people safe outweighed Jacobson's right to do whatever he wants with respect to his own person.

in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand" and that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own [liberty], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."

I think it's important to have religious exemptions for vaccines, but I also think it is reasonable for people given such exemptions to do what is required to keep other people safe.

My high school teacher liked to say that everyone is free to swing their fists, but not into someone else's face. That's where one person's freedom collides with another's freedom to be safe. If you read Supreme Court cases, they are usually about balancing different rights of different people or groups. My rights are not absolute precisely because I live in a society where other people also have rights.

[Bootstrap]

Unprecedented in my lifetime. The fact America was authoritarian in the 1940s doesn’t mean we should be today; they also used to round up people by ethnic group and put them in camps.

Well, we agree that the government should not round people up and put them in camps.

But I don't think vaccines are in the same category. All my life, vaccines have been mandatory for school children and for traveling to some countries. I suspect they have also been mandatory for some jobs.

[Bootstrap]

Two differences at least between this and smallpox, at least in my understanding.
The smallpox vaccine was not a 'leaky' vaccine, at least not to any extent, and smallpox was 'human specific' to the extent that there were no known reservoirs of smallpox in wildlife by which it could remain viable. So the possibility of eradication was real.

I agree that we are unlikely to eradicate Covid. But scientists say we can slow the rate and reduce hospitalizations and deaths significantly. And a bunch of recent studies seem to indicate that vaccinated people are less likely to transmit Covid, including the Delta variant - but it's still a bit early to be sure about that.

[Ken]

Unprecedented in my lifetime. The fact America was authoritarian in the 1940s doesn’t mean we should be today; they also used to round up people by ethnic group and put them in camps.

Which is it Josh? Is America improving or declining. I've heard both from you.

Some things are better, some are worse. I generally don't think harsh authoritarianism is a good thing, though.

Nuance from Josh! What is the world coming to!

[Bootstrap]

So what is the answer? Is there a validity to the concerns that people have about these mandates. Some think that we're just screaming for our rights. But is there a reason to suspect there is an agenda. Is there a reason to have distrust for the government? I can see the arguments for both sides of this personally observing what I am now you certainly wouldn't want to pass on a life-threatening virus to someone would you?

Who do people trust right now? Where is their confidence?

Ancient Israel had in its law how to handle those afflicted with leprosy and they were put in their own camps. Why was that? It was highly contagious and there was no cure. Until Jesus came along-. It was not considered cruel to put them in the camps it had to protect those that didn't have leprosy. These were instructions given by the Lord.

We have witnessed evil agendas in these types of mandates in the past we don't know if there's hidden agendas we don't know if there's a global agenda many people are highly suspicious of that and produce reasons why.

I have a hard time imagining what the "evil agenda" behind vaccines is supposed to be. Vaccines don't control you. They don't create mind-control. They just affect your immune system. And I really do believe that most doctors want to save lives.

[Ken]

I think it's important to have religious exemptions for vaccines, but I also think it is reasonable for people given such exemptions to do what is required to keep other people safe.

My high school teacher liked to say that everyone is free to swing their fists, but not into someone else's face. That's where one person's freedom collides with another's freedom to be safe. If you read Supreme Court cases, they are usually about balancing different rights of different people or groups. My rights are not absolute precisely because I live in a society where other people also have rights.

I think legitimate religious beliefs should be accommodated. I don’t think that is the same thing as blanket exemptions. The two industries where vaccine mandates have been the most prevalent are the airline industry and healthcare. In both instances you have employees working in very tight and close quarters with potentially vulnerable people. Flight attendants on airplanes, and medical staff in hospitals and clinics. I think it is perfectly appropriate for employers to say that a requirement of employees in those jobs is to be vaccinated against common infectious diseases like Covid as well as measles and any others that are highly contagious. Long before Covid both my wife and I were required to get various vaccines for our jobs in education and health care. Or demonstrate that we had previously been vaccinated. That is nothing new.

So what does “accommodation” mean? I would view it exactly like conscientious objector status in the military. Conscientious objectors don’t demand to serve in Marine rifle platoons and then ask to be exempted from orders to engage in combat. They ask to be allowed the opportunity to do alternative service. Similarly, I think employees with legitimate religious objections could be provided with alternative positions if they are available. Flight attendants could work from home as customer service phone representatives. Nurses could be reassigned to virtual care positions or clerical positions that don’t have contact with patients. That sort of thing. At least until the pandemic is completely over and we are no longer concerned about the risk of spreading Covid.

And no, I’m not interested in getting into an argument about whether vaccinated people are just as likely to spread covid as unvaccinated. I think employers and the government should have discretion to determine what health and safety measures they want to implement in the workplace and that isn’t something for employees to necessarily second guess. Whether we are talking about the operation of heavy equipment, sanitation standards, or vaccinations.

[Josh]

I have a hard time understanding why a vaccine mandate for government employees who work from home is necessary.

Exactly what is this about, other than authoritarianism and political control?

[Ken]

I have a hard time understanding why a vaccine mandate for government employees who work from home is necessary.

Exactly what is this about, other than authoritarianism and political control?

It’s about reaching herd immunity and bringing the pandemic to an end.