Josh wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:23 pm
But we're not talking about that, Ken.
We're talking about a mandate like "Be at a BMI of 24 or lower by November 15 or get fired".
How is it any different?
Show me a job for which that is remotely the case, other than perhaps very elite performance-related jobs like fighter pilots, astronauts, or professional athletes, or appearance-related jobs like fashion models. I doubt you’ll find one.
We are talking about whether there is a public interest in promoting health. Clearly there is. Most especially in the case of communicable diseases. But also for other endemic health issues that burden our society and healthcare system and cost us hundreds of billions of dollars annually. I don’t know how that is even remotely controversial.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:41 pm
We are talking about whether there is a public interest in promoting health. Clearly there is. Most especially in the case of communicable diseases.
There's this feeling that we make up law from scratch every time a new topic comes up. We don't.
In 1905, the Supreme Court said that vaccine mandates are legal. Other vaccine mandates of various kinds have also been found legal. We won't change that by discussing it for 150 pages on MN.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:23 pm
But we're not talking about that, Ken.
We're talking about a mandate like "Be at a BMI of 24 or lower by November 15 or get fired".
How is it any different?
Show me a job for which that is remotely the case, other than perhaps very elite performance-related jobs like fighter pilots, astronauts, or professional athletes, or appearance-related jobs like fashion models. I doubt you’ll find one.
We are talking about whether there is a public interest in promoting health. Clearly there is. Most especially in the case of communicable diseases. But also for other endemic health issues that burden our society and healthcare system and cost us hundreds of billions of dollars annually. I don’t know how that is even remotely controversial.
The difference between these mandates and previous mandates like smallpox, is that COVID is SIGNIFICANTLY less virulent in terms of death and hospitalizations, and that COVID vaccines are basically completely ineffective over time.
As we get more data, we can do empirical analysis to see how vaccination relates to COVID prevalence, and the trend line actually shows a slight inverse of what we would hope. The data definitely does not support any kinds of mandates for the current crop of vaccines.
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:23 pm
But we're not talking about that, Ken.
We're talking about a mandate like "Be at a BMI of 24 or lower by November 15 or get fired".
How is it any different?
Show me a job for which that is remotely the case, other than perhaps very elite performance-related jobs like fighter pilots, astronauts, or professional athletes, or appearance-related jobs like fashion models. I doubt you’ll find one.
We are talking about whether there is a public interest in promoting health. Clearly there is. Most especially in the case of communicable diseases. But also for other endemic health issues that burden our society and healthcare system and cost us hundreds of billions of dollars annually. I don’t know how that is even remotely controversial.
The difference between these mandates and previous mandates like smallpox, is that COVID is SIGNIFICANTLY less virulent in terms of death and hospitalizations, and that COVID vaccines are basically completely ineffective over time.
Actually that isn't true. Take polio. The peak year for polio in the US was 1952 with 57,000 cases and 3,145 deaths with about 15,000 cases of paralysis. That was for the entire year. By contrast, at its peak, DAILY Covid cases and deaths exceeded the annual numbers for polio. In fact, the daily Covid case numbers peaked at probably 6x the annual numbers for polio and the numbers of hospitalizations for Covid was orders of magnitude larger than polio. Only about 0.5% of polio infections lead to paralysis and only about 5-10% of paralysis cases were fatal. So polio was also considerably less deadly than Covid. Yet we still mandate polio vaccines in school and have done so since the late 1950s. And public health officials took all manner of quarantine measures to control polio outbreaks like closing down public spaces such as pools and theaters.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Show me a job for which that is remotely the case, other than perhaps very elite performance-related jobs like fighter pilots, astronauts, or professional athletes, or appearance-related jobs like fashion models. I doubt you’ll find one.
We are talking about whether there is a public interest in promoting health. Clearly there is. Most especially in the case of communicable diseases. But also for other endemic health issues that burden our society and healthcare system and cost us hundreds of billions of dollars annually. I don’t know how that is even remotely controversial.
The difference between these mandates and previous mandates like smallpox, is that COVID is SIGNIFICANTLY less virulent in terms of death and hospitalizations, and that COVID vaccines are basically completely ineffective over time.
Actually that isn't true. Take polio. The peak year for polio in the US was 1952 with 57,000 cases and 3,145 deaths with about 15,000 cases of paralysis. That was for the entire year. By contrast, at its peak, DAILY Covid cases and deaths exceeded the annual numbers for polio. In fact, the daily Covid case numbers peaked at probably 6x the annual numbers for polio and the numbers of hospitalizations for Covid was orders of magnitude larger than polio. Only about 0.5% of polio infections lead to paralysis and only about 5-10% of paralysis cases were fatal. So polio was also considerably less deadly than Covid. Yet we still mandate polio vaccines in school and have done so since the late 1950s. And public health officials took all manner of quarantine measures to control polio outbreaks like closing down public spaces such as pools and theaters.
I'm not aware of a nationwide polio vaccine mandate that prevented people from working. Also the polio vaccines made a difference in polio infections, COVID vaccines don't.
Not comparable at all. Something like 75-150 million Americans have had covid by now. Polio never was something that infected 25%-50% of people.
More importantly, the polio vaccine was effective. Once someone got it, they couldn’t get infected by an unvaccinated person. And nobody was threatened with losing their job via nationwide employer mandates.
Nett made the claim that previous vaccine mandates were for diseases that were deadlier and had higher hospitalization rates than Covid. I’m simply pointing out that this isn’t true. It’s not just polio. As a teacher I was required to get the MMR vaccine a few years ago (or prove that I had already been vaccinated). It was a mandatory job requirement. I would have been suspended if I had refused. None of those diseases are as deadly as Covid either.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:23 pm
But we're not talking about that, Ken.
We're talking about a mandate like "Be at a BMI of 24 or lower by November 15 or get fired".
How is it any different?
Show me a job for which that is remotely the case, other than perhaps very elite performance-related jobs like fighter pilots, astronauts, or professional athletes, or appearance-related jobs like fashion models. I doubt you’ll find one.
We are talking about whether there is a public interest in promoting health. Clearly there is. Most especially in the case of communicable diseases. But also for other endemic health issues that burden our society and healthcare system and cost us hundreds of billions of dollars annually. I don’t know how that is even remotely controversial.
Covid’s IFR is under 0.04% for people age 55 and under.
Polio’s IFR was 5.4% in 1952 and greatly affected children.
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:23 pm
But we're not talking about that, Ken.
We're talking about a mandate like "Be at a BMI of 24 or lower by November 15 or get fired".
How is it any different?
Show me a job for which that is remotely the case, other than perhaps very elite performance-related jobs like fighter pilots, astronauts, or professional athletes, or appearance-related jobs like fashion models. I doubt you’ll find one.
We are talking about whether there is a public interest in promoting health. Clearly there is. Most especially in the case of communicable diseases. But also for other endemic health issues that burden our society and healthcare system and cost us hundreds of billions of dollars annually. I don’t know how that is even remotely controversial.
Covid’s IFR is under 0.04% for people age 55 and under.
Polio’s IFR was 5.4% in 1952 and greatly affected children.
They are not even close to comparable.
Here in the US, polio killed roughly 3,000 people in 1952 which was the worst year of the polio epidemic. Covid has killed 353,000 people so far in 2021 and the year is not yet over. You are right. They are not even close to comparable.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
I have a little bit to add to the history of vaccine mandates: last night when my wife and I went to vote early in our city's municipal election we were turned away from the polling station because we were unable to produce a vaccine pass. So you can add disenfranchisement to the list of precedents.
We're not technically disenfranchised; we can still vote as long as the polling station is not in a school. But the Administrative State has 1000 ways to achieve its ends through indirect means. In this case it is by ensuring that most polling stations are in schools. We were finally able to vote at a polling station in a different ward which was in a community centre. But it's going to be a real scramble for unvaccinated voters on election night because this restriction has not been publicised.
