Seattle’s (former?) Capitol Hill neighborhood

[temporal1]

Sure, permission should be given. But there was no damage to anything with that fire.
I live in a wild fire prone area too, my house borders 80,000 acre national grassland where there was lightning fireS and controlled burns last year. I know what you are talking about.
Nonetheless, that particular case didn’t cause anything to worry about.

Much more damage was caused by rioters burning things they didn’t own without permission.

Over half of the state of Oregon is owned by the federal government. That is an economic problem for rural Oregon. It’s similar to an single person owning 52% of a state. It’s wealth consolidation and control.

No where near as much as if ADM or ConAgara owned it. You ok with me staking out 160 acres and moving in? Right next to you?

J. M.

Most of eastern Oregon was originally stolen from the Paiute people (as well as Shoshone Nez Perce, Cayuse and Umatilla people). If Federal lands are going to be disposed of in eastern Oregon, by right it should go to the descendants of the original rightful inhabitants, not the descendants of the "squatter" ranchers who stole it from them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Paiute_people

In fact, the Malheur reserve that was occupied by the Bundy folks was also stolen from the Paiutes who were forcibly relocated to the Yakima reservation in central Washington to make room for white settlers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malheur_I ... eservation

Whether we like it or not, governments are largely established by violent means. National borders are always changing. Some win, some lose, many are harmed.

If it’s agreed that world societies must return to some prior period in history, 1492? 1776? 200?
Then things will get “very interesting, indeed.” Which year do you have in mind?

The U.S., and Canada, have unique approaches to identified wrongs in their young histories.
These are actually unproven experiments in progress. i believe.
i’m not sure, i have interest in how other countries in the world have responded to their past histories of aggressions, including slavery and genocide. it seems a non-issue in other countries, developed and not developed. Native Americans engaged in territorial disputes, slavery, ugly violent behaviors, before Western Europeans arrived.

Is the North American way better? basically, gov is a constructed god, without benefit of Jesus.
i have not decided. i believe it merits serious study. NA gov will not fund that study!

[Bootstrap]

I don't know where you are getting this stuff, but I actually live in the Portland area and I was actually downtown with my 14 year old daughter yesterday doing some walking around and getting Thai takeout from a food cart. There is nothing going on at 3rd and Salmon downtown. Certainly no "autonomous zone" We did run into a protest march in SE Portland near Benson Polytech high school that was large but completely peaceful and organized. Looked like lots of teachers judging from the signs. Also lost of students and kids having a good time. Utterly unremarkable.

“WATCH: Portland protesters abandon their own failed, police-free ‘autonomous zone’ “
https://www.rt.com/usa/491513-portland- ... iled-zone/

Russia Today is in Moscow, not Portland. Ken is in Portland.



Russia Today is an important propaganda machine. You can read about it here.

[RZehr]

It is, until the BLM gets a grant to burn the land to study the effects on juniper and sage.
Or when the appropriate government entities decide burning grasslands as the native Americans did is “better for the environment” than mechanical control, and it helps “restore native sage grouse habitat”.
But if rancher and farmers use fire, it is all about smoke pollution and loss of habitat.
Utter ridiculousness.

I disagree. You can do what you want on your own property. Individuals don't get to decide how federal lands should be managed or graze their cattle wherever they want. You can't do that on your neighbor's property either. The Bundys have as just much right to that land as activists have to occupy the Capital Hill neighborhood.

I hear conflicting accounts about Capitol Hill. If there are black guys with guns, they should be treated just like white guys with guns. And de-escalation is an important part of doing that without creating a bloodbath.

Let me try again. First, BLM is Bureau of Land Management. You seem to be reading with black and white lenses. I’m fussing and complaining about left vs right.
Yes the ranchers shouldn’t burn where they aren’t permitted to. I’m not justifying damage, I’m saying the ranchers were treated as if they caused some great harm, when in reality they didn’t. Should not have to go to jail for burning a patch of weeds. It’s like being put in jail for not wearing a seatbelt or something.

From a pollution and environmental standpoint alone, it matters not who lights the match. Yet here in Oregon the environmental folks have pressured farmers not to burn because of “environment”. Even though the alternative is more chemicals and diesel fuel use.
While at the same time, they are now happy to see brush and grass burning done by cities instead of using chemicals, because it was sold as “better for environment”.
And they are happy to spend big bucks to “study” the effect of fire on grasslands because that is the natural way it used to be 200 years ago. But if rancher burn the same juniper and sage off, the focus is “pollution”.

With the MWR case, the ranchers clearly shouldn’t act like they own in and burn it. However the punishment was completely out of touch with the harm done. Arguably, there was no harm at all, but good done.

Yet predictably, the left persecuted them for “damage to government property” while the left does not yell and scream for blood at the rioters for their actual, real burn damage done. What’s more valuable, a patch of invasive weeds, or a bunch of commercial properties?

Everyone protects their own political side it looks like.

[temporal1]

I don't know where you are getting this stuff, but I actually live in the Portland area and I was actually downtown with my 14 year old daughter yesterday doing some walking around and getting Thai takeout from a food cart. There is nothing going on at 3rd and Salmon downtown. Certainly no "autonomous zone" We did run into a protest march in SE Portland near Benson Polytech high school that was large but completely peaceful and organized. Looked like lots of teachers judging from the signs. Also lost of students and kids having a good time. Utterly unremarkable.

“WATCH: Portland protesters abandon their own failed, police-free ‘autonomous zone’ “
https://www.rt.com/usa/491513-portland- ... iled-zone/

Russia Today is in Moscow, not Portland. Ken is in Portland.



Russia Today is an important propaganda machine. You can read about it here.

your image is not opening.
i don’t share links as God’s Word, only examples for topics. typically, similar is found in other sources, i don’t feel the need to google everything for everyone. i don’t dismiss anything or anyone from Russia because it’s from Russia. i don’t believe Russia is as harmful to the U.S. as others IN the U.S.
i lived through the Cold War. i don’t want to return.

[RZehr]

Sure, permission should be given. But there was no damage to anything with that fire.
I live in a wild fire prone area too, my house borders 80,000 acre national grassland where there was lightning fireS and controlled burns last year. I know what you are talking about.
Nonetheless, that particular case didn’t cause anything to worry about.

Much more damage was caused by rioters burning things they didn’t own without permission.

Over half of the state of Oregon is owned by the federal government. That is an economic problem for rural Oregon. It’s similar to an single person owning 52% of a state. It’s wealth consolidation and control.

No where near as much as if ADM or ConAgara owned it. You ok with me staking out 160 acres and moving in? Right next to you?

J. M.

Most of eastern Oregon was originally stolen from the Paiute people (as well as Shoshone Nez Perce, Cayuse and Umatilla people). If Federal lands are going to be disposed of in eastern Oregon, by right it should go to the descendants of the original rightful inhabitants, not the descendants of the "squatter" ranchers who stole it from them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Paiute_people

In fact, the Malheur reserve that was occupied by the Bundy folks was also stolen from the Paiutes who were forcibly relocated to the Yakima reservation in central Washington to make room for white settlers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malheur_I ... eservation

Sure, but much of eastern Oregon? Why stop rewinding time there where it only impacts people in eastern Oregon? How about all of North America? Why should the government return eastern Oregon but not the land you own?

[temporal1]

It is, until the BLM gets a grant to burn the land to study the effects on juniper and sage.
Or when the appropriate government entities decide burning grasslands as the native Americans did is “better for the environment” than mechanical control, and it helps “restore native sage grouse habitat”.
But if rancher and farmers use fire, it is all about smoke pollution and loss of habitat.
Utter ridiculousness.

I disagree. You can do what you want on your own property. Individuals don't get to decide how federal lands should be managed or graze their cattle wherever they want. You can't do that on your neighbor's property either. The Bundys have as just much right to that land as activists have to occupy the Capital Hill neighborhood.

I hear conflicting accounts about Capitol Hill. If there are black guys with guns, they should be treated just like white guys with guns. And de-escalation is an important part of doing that without creating a bloodbath.

Let me try again. First, BLM is Bureau of Land Management. You seem to be reading with black and white lenses. I’m fussing and complaining about left vs right.
Yes the ranchers shouldn’t burn where they aren’t permitted to. I’m not justifying damage, I’m saying the ranchers were treated as if they caused some great harm, when in reality they didn’t. Should not have to go to jail for burning a patch of weeds. It’s like being put in jail for not wearing a seatbelt or something.

From a pollution and environmental standpoint alone, it matters not who lights the match. Yet here in Oregon the environmental folks have pressured farmers not to burn because of “environment”. Even though the alternative is more chemicals and diesel fuel use.
While at the same time, they are now happy to see brush and grass burning done by cities instead of using chemicals, because it was sold as “better for environment”.
And they are happy to spend big bucks to “study” the effect of fire on grasslands because that is the natural way it used to be 200 years ago. But if rancher burn the same juniper and sage off, the focus is “pollution”.

With the MWR case, the ranchers clearly shouldn’t act like they own in and burn it. However the punishment was completely out of touch with the harm done. Arguably, there was no harm at all, but good done.

Yet predictably, the left persecuted them for “damage to government property” while the left does not yell and scream for blood at the rioters for their actual, real burn damage done. What’s more valuable, a patch of invasive weeds, or a bunch of commercial properties?

Everyone protects their own political side it looks like.

i doubt boot paid any attention to the Oregon BLM incident. If the Bundys had been black, he would have been thoroughly engaged, outraged, fervently posting, at the time, and now. (this is my take on what’s being written at this time.) i don’t recall forum discussions on the Bundys. but, perhaps.

(i think) your post was a short note that white men cannot count on getting passes, and, i agree, they can’t. and often pay ultimate prices without any public regard, whatsoever. i may not have understood your point. i’m usually not confident about my ability to understand what’s before me.

[Bootstrap]

It is, until the BLM gets a grant to burn the land to study the effects on juniper and sage.
Or when the appropriate government entities decide burning grasslands as the native Americans did is “better for the environment” than mechanical control, and it helps “restore native sage grouse habitat”.
But if rancher and farmers use fire, it is all about smoke pollution and loss of habitat.
Utter ridiculousness.

I disagree. You can do what you want on your own property. Individuals don't get to decide how federal lands should be managed or graze their cattle wherever they want. You can't do that on your neighbor's property either. The Bundys have as just much right to that land as activists have to occupy the Capital Hill neighborhood.

I hear conflicting accounts about Capitol Hill. If there are black guys with guns, they should be treated just like white guys with guns. And de-escalation is an important part of doing that without creating a bloodbath.

Let me try again. First, BLM is Bureau of Land Management. You seem to be reading with black and white lenses. I’m fussing and complaining about left vs right.
Yes the ranchers shouldn’t burn where they aren’t permitted to. I’m not justifying damage, I’m saying the ranchers were treated as if they caused some great harm, when in reality they didn’t. Should not have to go to jail for burning a patch of weeds. It’s like being put in jail for not wearing a seatbelt or something.

Actually, I knew that you meant Bureau of Land Management. Until just now, I didn't realize the same acronym also means Black Lives Matter. Funny!

To me, these situations are more similar than different if some accounts of Seattle are true. It's also possible that some of the accounts are overblown. I suspect that will be easier to know for sure in a week. But I think it's important to note that people on the left vs. right are not reacting differently to the same facts, they see different facts, based in different political narratives.

Reactions to the Zone have varied through the political spectrum. President Donald Trump referred to the occupants as "ugly Anarchists" and called for the governor of Washington and the mayor of Seattle to "take back" the Zone,[8] while Mayor Jenny Durkan on June 11 described the Zone as "four blocks in Seattle that is more like a block party atmosphere. It's not an armed takeover. It's not a military junta. We will make sure that we will restore this but we have block parties and the like in this part of Seattle all the time ... there is no threat right now to the public".

On June 12, Black Lives Matter protesters were reportedly negotiating with local officials to leave the Zone. SPD Chief Carmen Best said that officials were working to return police officers to the precinct. She stressed the "need to have officers responding to calls in a timely fashion. And with the occupation that's taking place, we're not able to do so in a timely way."

Some of these things are eminently knowable. In a few weeks, we should be able to see how much actual damage was done, look at deaths and injuries or lack thereof, etc.

[Bootstrap]

i doubt boot paid any attention to the Oregon BLM incident. If the Bundys had been black, he would have been thoroughly engaged, outraged, fervently posting, at the time, and now. (this is my take on what’s being written at this time.)

You make up your own Boot and imagine him feeling this way or that way, projecting hate onto him. You could actually go back through the archives and see what I wrote at the time if you are curious.

But if you want to know what I actually think and feel, I'm right here, you can find out with a simple question.

[Josh]

Sure, permission should be given. But there was no damage to anything with that fire.
I live in a wild fire prone area too, my house borders 80,000 acre national grassland where there was lightning fireS and controlled burns last year. I know what you are talking about.
Nonetheless, that particular case didn’t cause anything to worry about.

Much more damage was caused by rioters burning things they didn’t own without permission.

Over half of the state of Oregon is owned by the federal government. That is an economic problem for rural Oregon. It’s similar to an single person owning 52% of a state. It’s wealth consolidation and control.

No where near as much as if ADM or ConAgara owned it. You ok with me staking out 160 acres and moving in? Right next to you?

J. M.

Big corporations controlling land and money is as bad as big government. In the Bay Area, Google / Facebook / Apple / Cisco own a great deal of real estate and have their own armed private security. This should concern us.

[Ken]

of course, none of this compares with your much better insights. of course not. you know best.
still. that persistent thought that other views count, too, remains.

“WATCH: Portland protesters abandon their own failed, police-free ‘autonomous zone’ “
https://www.rt.com/usa/491513-portland- ... iled-zone/

I posted a Seattle Times news report and first-hand information from three different people.

The article you just posted is from the Russia Times which is a propaganda arm of the Russian Government. The article itself is nothing but a collection of old tweets showing some video of protesters dragging fencing around in downtown Portland next to the police station a few nights ago. Reportedly showing some sort of failed "autonomous zone?" The same video was passed around on a couple of other right wing web sites that aren't from Portland.

Your original post was from a web site called the District Herald which claimed.

Militant leftists in Portland are now attempting to set up their own “autonomous zone,” free of police, after the Seattle version was overtaken by an armed “warlord” just one day in.

This site looks like that a front for Russian internet trolls. There are no editorial or publisher information available on the web site and no contact links. In other words, they are hiding who they are.

I looked at all the reputable local news sites for anything about anything to do with autonomous zones in Portland and came up with just one single news story from the local ABC affiliate suggesting that they are unlikely: https://katu.com/news/local/autonomous- ... hat-likely

None of the other reputable news sources such as the two local newspapers or any of the local TV or radio stations have covered any sort of Portland Autonomous Zone and I actually passed through that part of Portland on Thursday and saw nothing. So I stand by my conclusions that the article you linked to was nonsense and much ado about nothing.

Here are all the local news sources for Portland. Feel free to search their web sites and archives for anything like what you suggest. You won't find anything:

Portland Oregonian: https://www.oregonlive.com/
Portland Tribune: https://pamplinmedia.com/
Willamette Week: https://www.wweek.com/homepage/
Local FOX Affiliate: https://www.kptv.com/
Local ABC Affiliate: https://katu.com/
Local CBS Affiliate: https://www.koin.com/
Local NPR/PBS: https://www.opb.org/