Global Warning/Climate Change

[silentreader]

Let me throw some theology into the mix, specifically, eschatology (what else right?)
How many of you arguing on this subject believe we are living in the "last days", and if so, how can any of this be relevant from that perspective. If Jesus could come at any time and rapture you all out, what is the point of climate change discussions?
Are we living in the end of time or not? If you believe that we are, shouldn't that impact your views of these kinds of things. I don't recall any of this kind of conversation in the early church, even for hundreds/thousands of years.
Am I missing something here?
BTW, I'm not looking for a bunny trail or a discussion of eschatology, only wondering if you all really believe what you say you believe in regards to all of this?

It seems to me that there is often lip-service given to a stance, which is then be-lied by actual practice.

[GaryK]

It makes much more sense to me to trust that God is in control of this matter.

God is in control of all things. We need to trust him with everything regardless.

Saying God is in control of all things is an exclusive statement. Everything is everything.

[Bootstrap]

It makes much more sense to me to trust that God is in control of this matter.

God is in control of all things. We need to trust him with everything regardless.

Saying God is in control of all things is an exclusive statement. Everything is everything.

Yes. That doesn't mean that bad things can't happen, and it doesn't mean that human beings can't cause bad things to happen, but it does mean that God will be with us if bad things happen. Still, it's better for us to act responsibly and not just count on God to bail us out.

[Bootstrap]

Let me throw some theology into the mix, specifically, eschatology (what else right?)
How many of you arguing on this subject believe we are living in the "last days", and if so, how can any of this be relevant from that perspective. If Jesus could come at any time and rapture you all out, what is the point of climate change discussions?
Are we living in the end of time or not? If you believe that we are, shouldn't that impact your views of these kinds of things. I don't recall any of this kind of conversation in the early church, even for hundreds/thousands of years.
Am I missing something here?
BTW, I'm not looking for a bunny trail or a discussion of eschatology, only wondering if you all really believe what you say you believe in regards to all of this?

I don't know when Jesus is coming, we have been living in hope of that for 2,000 years, and I don't think any of us knows the times or the seasons. In the meantime, I think we need to act responsibly.

Paul discussed this somewhere, I believe, telling believers not to act irresponsibly, using the excuse that the second coming of Jesus would bail them out - I can't remember the exact passage, do you know the one I am thinking of? So to me this is rather a bunny trail.

[GaryK]

God is in control of all things. We need to trust him with everything regardless.

Saying God is in control of all things is an exclusive statement. Everything is everything.

Yes. That doesn't mean that bad things can't happen, and it doesn't mean that human beings can't cause bad things to happen, but it does mean that God will be with us if bad things happen. Still, it's better for us to act responsibly and not just count on God to bail us out.

My point is that you don't seem to accept as valid, a premise that some of us are coming from when we say that God is and always has been in control of climate cycles. You seem to trust the scientists (probably mostly anti-God) on this who say that what is happening with the present climate is not a natural cycle but rather a man-made cycle and I don't see how that's trusting God with everything.

[temporal1]

My point is that you don't seem to accept as valid, a premise that some of us are coming from when we say that God is and always has been in control of climate cycles.

You seem to trust the scientists (probably mostly anti-God) on this who say that what is happening with the present climate is not a natural cycle but rather a man-made cycle

and I don't see how that's trusting God with everything.

false gods are insidious. sneaky.
when we’re certain we do not worship idols, there they are!

[Bootstrap]

It really doesn't take a scientist to observe the fact that scientists never say what the weather is going to be on a certain day 3 weeks from now.

And that's because scientists try not to make predictions that they cannot reliably make, and they assign probabilities to the predictions they do make. Scientists have gotten good enough at predicting tomorrow's weather that I can decide whether to run in the morning and lay out the clothes I will need or plan a picnic at a given time during the day. They have gotten good enough at predicting a week's weather that I know what to pack if I am traveling somewhere. We trust these kinds of predictions because we have seen them work. And of course, we know how to predict seasons within a reasonable range.

Scientists also think they can predict global warming within a range of possible outcomes, and assign probabilities. That also comes from looking at what has accurately predicted these things in the past. Local regional changes are less predictable. There was a recent article comparing one particular research team's predictions to 15 years of data - they found that the simulations accurately predicted the warming experienced in the past decade to within a few hundredths of a degree.

And it really doesn't take a scientist to observe the fact that scientists can't and never will be able to say with certainty what the climate and earth is going to be like 50 years from now.

Even scientists say this. They give a range of probable outcomes, assigning probabilities to each. But they are also saying there is a significant risk. Can you say with certainty that there is not a significant risk?

I say that with a level of certainty these scientists will never use and I can say that because I believe as factual that ONLY God knows these things. Is that what you call arrogant blustering?

I would certainly agree that only God knows the future with certainty. But doesn't that mean we cannot say, with certainty, that scientists are wrong about this risk?

[JimFoxvog]

My point is that you don't seem to accept as valid, a premise that some of us are coming from when we say that God is and always has been in control of climate cycles. You seem to trust the scientists (probably mostly anti-God) on this who say that what is happening with the present climate is not a natural cycle but rather a man-made cycle and I don't see how that's trusting God with everything.

Would this approach apply on a smaller scale, such as smog causing increased mortality in a city? When the hypothesized causes of smog are reduced, deaths decrease.

Do you think on the same basis that nuclear war, with the following predicted nuclear winter, is also impossible?

I believe God allows people to hurt themselves and other people. My understanding of why is that he gave us the freedom to choose good or evil.

[temporal1]

The scientific community does not get to tell us what mainstream science says about global warming (we wouldn't understand it anyway), the media, entertainers, educators and politicians do.

Only if you prefer to read the media, entertainers, educators, and politicians. It's not at all hard to find the places where the scientific community tells us these things in easy-to-read language. I have posted resources and graphics created by NASA and NOAA today, shall we discuss them?

Most of your resources come from John Cooks "Skeptical Science" webpage. Look at your previous post - it even has his annotations. It doesn't matter if the source is NOAA or NASA, it's cherry picked by John Cook and it presents one side of the argument, not the full argument.

I do not deny that the earth is getting warmer, nor do any of the scientists who are labeled by John Cook as "deniers". I am skeptical of the climate models and the long term predictions of those models (they have not performed well) and even more skeptical of the speculation of disasters that is passed off as science.

Scientist are not as pure in the search of truth as you would like us to believe. Remember "hide the decline".

.. from what i understand, on this forum, Wayne is the most scientifically-educated member, his posts consistently reflect his education, understanding, and faith - which, maybe shocking to some, are not mutually exclusive.

i prefer the position of learning about scientific query (rather than convincing of my understanding) when the opp arises with Wayne’s input. different members offer different gifts through their understandings.

an aside, i do not believe any MN members are negligent regarding caring for the earth, being good stewards of the land, and of all creation. mistakes may be made, but not in negligence.

i cannot say the same for global warming lobbyists-leaders.

[GaryK]

My point is that you don't seem to accept as valid, a premise that some of us are coming from when we say that God is and always has been in control of climate cycles. You seem to trust the scientists (probably mostly anti-God) on this who say that what is happening with the present climate is not a natural cycle but rather a man-made cycle and I don't see how that's trusting God with everything.

Would this approach apply on a smaller scale, such as smog causing increased mortality in a city? When the hypothesized causes of smog are reduced, deaths decrease.

Do you think on the same basis that nuclear war, with the following predicted nuclear winter, is also impossible?

I believe God allows people to hurt themselves and other people. My understanding of why is that he gave us the freedom to choose good or evil.

I have never said (that I'm aware of) in any of my posts that I believe the things scientists are predicting about global warming/climate change will not happen. I have purposefully stayed away from this line of reasoning. If they do happen no one will be able to prove that it wasn't God's doing. There has been a deliberate attempt by much of the scientific community to prove God out of everything (including human origins) and I don't think climate scientists are an exception.

What I have been pushing back on is the idea that it's not sound reasoning to believe that whatever warming is currently taking place is being controlled by God alone.

A question that I still haven't seen answered by anyone on this forum who believes what the scientists are saying, is why the present climate cycle is being associated with human activity but previous much more catastrophic ones weren't/aren't.