NY Set to Legalize Abortion Up to Birth

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
MaxPC
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Re: NY Set to Legalize Abortion Up to Birth

Post by MaxPC »

GaryK wrote:
RZehr wrote:Here’s a thought experiment. If I believe all abortion is murder, why is this law worse than the previous law?
If abortion is the same as murder, if life begins at conception, why is there an increase in wickedness from killing at 1 week vs 42 weeks vs after birth?
There probably is no difference. I think one thing that may make this seem so shocking is that many states have been trying to implement laws that go the other way in order to get as close to outlawing abortion as possible. Looking at the bigger picture however, a question arises: is it unreasonable to believe that the next step may be a push to legalize outside the womb killing of unwanted babies and if so, is there a convenient stopping place after that?
Amen and amen. And the killing of older people and the disabled because they are inconvenient? This is already happening in Europe. The "horse is out of the barn". The Democrat majority in the NY legislature wanted this and are celebrating. Biblically this is murder pure and simple.

What can we do as Christians? Work one to one with the young and the old, teaching them that all life has dignity and the civil right to live. One to one the battle is won: hearts and minds need the message of Christ. This is how Christianity has survived and even thrived in pagan cultures through the millenia.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: NY Set to Legalize Abortion Up to Birth

Post by JimFoxvog »

RZehr wrote:If I believe all abortion is murder, why is this law worse than the previous law? If abortion is the same as murder, if life begins at conception, why is there an increase in wickedness from killing at 1 week vs 42 weeks vs after birth?
The Bible seems to regard the killing of the unborn child as a sin deserving a lesser penalty than the killing of the mother.
And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. Exodus 21:22-25 (NASB)
One can consistently believe abortion is wrong, yet a less serious crime than murder.
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MaxPC
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Re: NY Set to Legalize Abortion Up to Birth

Post by MaxPC »

JimFoxvog wrote:
RZehr wrote:If I believe all abortion is murder, why is this law worse than the previous law? If abortion is the same as murder, if life begins at conception, why is there an increase in wickedness from killing at 1 week vs 42 weeks vs after birth?
The Bible seems to regard the killing of the unborn child as a sin deserving a lesser penalty than the killing of the mother.
And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. Exodus 21:22-25 (NASB)
One can consistently believe abortion is wrong, yet a less serious crime than murder.
Needless to say that's not how we interpret this, Jim. We see it all unequivocally as murder. Now that science has revealed much more about conception and gestation we see this verse in a new light:

[bible]Jeremiah 1,5[/bible]
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
temporal1
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Re: NY Set to Legalize Abortion Up to Birth

Post by temporal1 »

IOWA
”Iowa 'fetal heartbeat' abortion restriction declared unconstitutional, struck down by Polk County judge“
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story ... 2195947002

It strikes me as odd how these cases are appearing in celebritory fashion just now, at the very time the 2019 MARCH FOR LIFE was (again) ignored. Even with support of POTUS+VPOTUS for MFL.
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temporal1
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Re: NY Set to Legalize Abortion Up to Birth

Post by temporal1 »

GaryK wrote:
RZehr wrote:Here’s a thought experiment. If I believe all abortion is murder, why is this law worse than the previous law?
If abortion is the same as murder, if life begins at conception, why is there an increase in wickedness from killing at 1 week vs 42 weeks vs after birth?
There probably is no difference. I think one thing that may make this seem so shocking is that many states have been trying to implement laws that go the other way in order to get as close to outlawing abortion as possible.

Looking at the bigger picture however, a question arises:
is it unreasonable to believe that the next step may be a push to legalize outside the womb killing of unwanted babies and if so, is there a convenient stopping place after that?
This is a reality, thankfully, not seen in widespread news. It was discussed a bit on MD.

If i recall, some call it, “post-birth abortion.” (no. it could not be more grisly.)
There have been some cases in Europe.
i’m foggy on details. Possibly, within the baby’s first year after birth??

Another related thought on this.
Each year, there are isolated instances of (usually young mothers) who kill their newborns.
Wow. Do these young women get the HARSH treatment in social media. Sheer hatred, no punishment too great.

i grieve for the infants.
i also grieve for the mothers. their raging hormones. possible mental illness. certainly, huge social problems. terror. anxiety. desperation.

at the moment of conception, the mother’s body+mind are set on a certain course to create new life. the science of it is incredible. a molecular explosion of life. at conception.

this is no small matter. science reveals a lot, but evermore is yet to be learned.
babies do not just appear out of the blue!
the design, when working correctly, prepares the woman for motherhood, both during gestation, and following birth. hormones affect women mentally and physically.

The world wants to ignore all this.
It purports pregnancy as just some inconvenience that can be prevented or undone, at will, with no ramifications. This is convenient for what they are selling, both conception prevention, and, ending “POC / products of conception” AKA, premeditated for-profit destruction of human life.

sometimes, hormones “get it wrong” and women can be set on a bad path to depression, even psychosis. infants, children, sometimes are killed as a result. their mothers routinely go to prison.

My bugaboo.
i would like to see a MORATORIUM placed on these tragic cases until it becomes settled about what to do about FOR PROFIT CORPORATE ABORTION.

In my mind, how can the state legalize and fund FOR PROFIT corporate premeditated murder, while demonizing the odd exceptions of undeniably (insane, or temporarily insane) individual cases, that have nothing to do with profit?

Historically, in murder cases, the courts look for intent.
They look for insanity. They look for profit. If someone kills “in a fit of rage,” this is judged much less harshly than paying for a hitman, or showing deliberate premeditation and planning.

Outside of abortion, premeditated murder, esp FOR PROFIT murder, are judged as particularly heinous crimes. Yet, where is a more vulnerable, defenseless victim, than an aborted victim?

As it is, consider how these few young women must feel in prison, other women asking, “why didn’t you get an abortion?!” .. i have not experienced this, but, how would this not happen?

i cannot accept punishing these teens/children/women like this - while knowing the rich rewards and public respect medical professionals enjoy, for doing the very same thing (only far worse).

Yes. In an imaginary world that bothers to think, there is much to think about. :-|
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temporal1
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Re: NY Set to Legalize Abortion Up to Birth

Post by temporal1 »

JimFoxvog wrote:
RZehr wrote:If I believe all abortion is murder, why is this law worse than the previous law? If abortion is the same as murder, if life begins at conception, why is there an increase in wickedness from killing at 1 week vs 42 weeks vs after birth?
The Bible seems to regard the killing of the unborn child as a sin deserving a lesser penalty than the killing of the mother.
And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. Exodus 21:22-25 (NASB)
One can consistently believe abortion is wrong, yet a less serious crime than murder.
Maybe not.
In human courts, commiting 1 Felony Murder is judged less harshly than a Double, or Triple Homicide. Or, even commiting other types of felonies in the process of murder.
Multiple felonies can bring in the death penalty.

This does not mean 1 felony is a lesser offense, it means, multiple counts are subject to increased punishment.
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temporal1
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Re: NY Set to Legalize Abortion Up to Birth

Post by temporal1 »

In fact, their pride has no limits, does it? :(
New York Celebrates Abortion until Birth
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/new-y ... ne-world-t
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RZehr
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Re: NY Set to Legalize Abortion Up to Birth

Post by RZehr »

The whole abortion thing just shows how depraved we get when we live outside of Gods design. Fornication, unwanted births, single mothers, broken homes, abortion, necessity of foster homes then abuse in foster homes, then afterbirth murder, no family support because of broken homes full of sin and selfishness, no church support, it just goes on and on.

It just multiplies, like someone having to tell more lies to cover up past lies. And mankind won't turn to God because they "aren't going to be told what to do" and then they pass more and more and more laws to try to corral mankinds sinful behaviors.
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MaxPC
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Re: NY Set to Legalize Abortion Up to Birth

Post by MaxPC »

RZehr wrote:The whole abortion thing just shows how depraved we get when we live outside of Gods design. Fornication, unwanted births, single mothers, broken homes, abortion, necessity of foster homes then abuse in foster homes, then afterbirth murder, no family support because of broken homes full of sin and selfishness, no church support, it just goes on and on.

It just multiplies, like someone having to tell more lies to cover up past lies. And mankind won't turn to God because they "aren't going to be told what to do" and then they pass more and more and more laws to try to corral mankinds sinful behaviors.
Amen and amen!
There are also some connections between abortion and the illegal sex traffic trade. The sex workers can’t work if they’re recovering from a pregnancy.

The mission before us is clear: bring the message of love and hope to those who have become ensnared in this evil trap. A disciples work is not finished until we meet Him in heaven.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
temporal1
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Re: NY Set to Legalize Abortion Up to Birth

Post by temporal1 »

MaxPC wrote:
RZehr wrote: The whole abortion thing just shows how depraved we get when we live outside of Gods design. Fornication, unwanted births, single mothers, broken homes, abortion, necessity of foster homes then abuse in foster homes, then afterbirth murder, no family support because of broken homes full of sin and selfishness, no church support, it just goes on and on.

It just multiplies, like someone having to tell more lies to cover up past lies. And mankind won't turn to God because they "aren't going to be told what to do" and then they pass more and more and more laws to try to corral mankinds sinful behaviors.
Amen and amen!
There are also some connections between abortion and the illegal sex traffic trade. The sex workers can’t work if they’re recovering from a pregnancy.

The mission before us is clear: bring the message of love and hope to those who have become ensnared in this evil trap. A disciples work is not finished until we meet Him in heaven.
i’d like to add, once there is conception, no matter how that new life proceeds, the mother’s mind+body will be required to “recover from a pregnancy.”

Whether alive or deceased, the new life must leave his/her mother’s body, the mother’s body must recover and heal.

In a late term birth/miscarriage/abortion, the mother’s mind+body are prepared to nurture an infant.
Every woman who has experienced a full term delivery knows very well there is a process of months, i think a year, for the body to recover.

It is not like “having a dental procedure.” :shock:

Today, science is finding that there are permanent chemical changes to the mother that begin at conception. Evidently, the mother’s body acquires certain “protections” against disease, etc., EVEN IF the early pregnancy is miscarried.

This is amazing to me. We lost 3 early pregnancies, now i read, somehow, those “lost” souls may, somehow, still be in me, somewhere-somehow! It boggles my mind, and, i am encouraged at God’s plan.

But, aborting a full term baby, 7-8-9 months, “saves” the mother NOTHING.
she must go through “all-that” yet be empty-handed, with no child, for all the work her body went through to create it.

Not to mention the horrifying guilt of ending someone’s life.

Once you get a glimpse of what it may be like to face Final Judgment, it makes everyday decisions much weightier. Excuses won’t hold up. What did you do?
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