Seattle’s (former?) Capitol Hill neighborhood

[ken_sylvania]

I find it interesting a consensus is building here that society should make it easy for addicts to chase the best “high” at great risk to their own life.

I think you're smart enough to know that no such consensus is building.

[Josh]

I find it interesting a consensus is building here that society should make it easy for addicts to chase the best “high” at great risk to their own life.

It is sort of like the consensus that hospitals should still admit patients dying of COVID even if they were too foolish to get themselves vaccinated.

There's a rather gigantic difference between someone who chooses to avoid COVID vaccines and someone who takes illegal drugs to get high.

And the consensus that ambulances should still take you to the hospital after a highway wreck even if you were too foolish to wear a seatbelt or motorcycle helmet. Or were driving some black Amish buggy at night without flashers and a visible reflective warning triangle.

We save people from their bad decisions and foolishness all the time.

Yes. But at the same time, we don't demand that society place padded airbags on the sides of highways so that it's safer to drive a motorcycle without a helmet.

[Ken]

I find it interesting a consensus is building here that society should make it easy for addicts to chase the best “high” at great risk to their own life.

It is sort of like the consensus that hospitals should still admit patients dying of COVID even if they were too foolish to get themselves vaccinated.

There's a rather gigantic difference between someone who chooses to avoid COVID vaccines and someone who takes illegal drugs to get high.

And the consensus that ambulances should still take you to the hospital after a highway wreck even if you were too foolish to wear a seatbelt or motorcycle helmet. Or were driving some black Amish buggy at night without flashers and a visible reflective warning triangle.

We save people from their bad decisions and foolishness all the time.

Yes. But at the same time, we don't demand that society place padded airbags on the sides of highways so that it's safer to drive a motorcycle without a helmet.

Drug use is not the only foolish risk taking activity that occurs in our society.

We do spend billions of dollars making highways safer and also to built out a system of emergency response (ambulances, helicopters, trauma wards, and so forth to deal with people who make poor decisions on the highways and get into crashes. And we even put the equivalent of air bags at may dangerous crash points on our highways, usually they are safety barrels, collapsible guard rails, and that sort of thing.

We had a thread not long ago about conservative Anabaptists who speed excessively on the way to church. That is another example of pointless risk taking that puts your family and all other highway users at increased risk.

I am not defending drug addicts in the slightest. And I would find it hard to be sympathetic if one were overdosing on the sidewalk. But as a general rule, we as a society do choose to rescue people from the consequences of their bad behavior.

My wife is a doctor and many of the patients that she sees who are coming to her with an ailment (and not just an annual checkup) are sick as a consequence of some bad behavior. Diabetes, heart disease, many cancers, etc. She wouldn't have much to do if she only chose to see patients who were ill or injured through no fault or negligence of their own.

And yes that included many people who died of COVID after choosing not to get vaccinated.

[Josh]

We had a thread not long ago about conservative Anabaptists who speed excessively on the way to church. That is another example of pointless risk taking that puts your family and all other highway users at increased risk

Yes. And reckless driving is not something that should be accommodated and made “safer”.

Shooting up street drugs does not need to be made “safer”.

[temporal1]

P.19:

NPR KUOW / 'It is not OK,' Seattle union leader responds to transit drug study
https://kuow.org/stories/it-is-not-ok-s ... drug-study

.. Price added that it's "not OK," because the drugs are killing people, and the issue is placing mental stress on drivers.

Seattle-area transit operators have long raised alarms over drug use aboard buses.

In 2022, KING5 reported that formal reports about drug use from King County Metro's drivers rose in recent years:
44 reports in 2019; 73 in 2020; and 398 in 2021. KOMO further reported that Metro's data for 2022 showed 1,885 reports of drug use on buses. Also, 16 operators filed workers' comp claims by March 2023. The UW study on Seattle buses and trains also began in March.

The study out of the UW's Environmental and Occupational Health Science Department focused on environmental factors and work conditions. It did not deal with health effects or toxicity from exposure to drugs. Experts did say, that while there are little or no standards for such exposures, they would not expect the low levels detected on buses and trains to be of risk to anyone.

Researchers monitored surface samples from buses and trains in Seattle and Portland. They also placed air monitors around operators and passenger areas. While traces of fentanyl were found in some samples, methamphetamine was detected in nearly 100% of samples. Researchers recommended upgrading air filters to MERV 13 or higher, as well as enhancing cleaning protocols. They also suggested mental health support for drivers. ..

^^i have an ORCA pass for bus service. A few weeks ago my grdaughter+i were on a few of these busses.
The busses are great, the service is great.

The drugs and horrors are real and common. It’s awful what people are doing to themselves and others.
Air travel must be about the same.

“Nothing to see here.”


NPR KUOW / Why does the US drug czar think WA schools should stock Narcan like fire extinguishers?”
https://kuow.org/stories/why-does-the-u ... inguishers

The United States’ top drug control official is in Washington state this week to sound the alarm on the threat of fentanyl — especially for kids this school year.

Dr. Rahul Gupta, the director of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, carries Narcan with him at all times. It’s a life-saving medication that counteracts an opioid overdose.

Gupta spoke Tuesday at a back-to-school town hall at the Issaquah School District centered on fighting the nation’s growing fentanyl crisis. He appeared alongside U.S. Rep. Kim Schrier, a Democrat from Washington’s 8th Congressional District, and Martin Turney, chief of finance and operations for Issaquah schools.

Gupta’s visit comes on the heels of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data showing the death toll of the opioid crisis is rising faster in Washington state than anywhere else in the country.

As of Tuesday, King County reported 786 fentanyl overdose deaths so far this year — nearly 200 more than at this time last year.

And children are becoming more vulnerable to the powerful synthetic opioid that is increasingly being found in counterfeit prescription drugs. CDC data shows more than 1,500 kids and teens died from fentanyl in 2021 — four times higher than in 2018.

Gupta zeroed in on the dangers when kids buy drugs off the street — like Adderall to help them study before a big test or Xanax at a party — that could be laced with fentanyl.

One small thing everyone can do — from students to parents — is have Narcan on hand, just like he does.

“It may not be you,” Gupta said. “It may be your friend in school, or at a party, or at the mall. It may be a stranger, worse enough, that you may not know, but you can save their life.”

Gupta wants to see schools establish curriculum warnings against fentanyl and drugs in general, and make Narcan a visible fixture in schools, like a fire extinguisher or defibrillator.

Turney said all security staff at Issaquah’s middle and high schools carry Narcan with them, and staff spread the word about the risks of fentanyl.

“We try to make sure that students are aware of the resources available to them,” he said. “Over time, what we’ve noticed is students who are aware of an issue or they believe they can help, they just pick up and connect with those crisis lines and it can be a world of help to them and their fellow students.”

God have mercy.

When i added these 2 reports, my focus was on how DANGEROUS DRUGS AND ALL THAT GOES WITH THEM are being so normalized in the general population, INCLUDING PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

i find the NORMALIZATION and ACCOMODATION horrifying, esp among young innocents.
They deserve abundant PROTECTION and SEPARATION from evil.

Policies that create life where EVERYONE IS LIVING EQUALLY IN GUTTERS, are not acceptable policies.
It should be UNTHINKABLE.

[Judas Maccabeus]

We had a thread not long ago about conservative Anabaptists who speed excessively on the way to church. That is another example of pointless risk taking that puts your family and all other highway users at increased risk

Yes. And reckless driving is not something that should be accommodated and made “safer”.

Shooting up street drugs does not need to be made “safer”.

Well, Narcan nasal spray sure does not make it safe....

Problem is, that Narcan is a short acting Opiate antagonist. Fentanyl is, by design a long acting drug. SO if you revive someone with Narcan, they need to go to the hospital right away. If they refuse, well in 30-45 minutes the Narcan wears off, and they are likely to stop breathing again.

That does not account for the fact that, at least here on the east coast Xylazine, a veterinary tranquilizer is normally mixed in. Narcan can't reverse that, so if you OD on it, and your only help is Narcan, well you are out of luck. Makes nice open sores that you can smell. This is what propels crime here in our urban areas. More and more it is Juvenile offenders as the foot soldiers for these Ganga.

The only solution is for these people to find Jesus. Problem, only thing they are typically trying to find is the next high. There is no way that can be made safe.

[Ken]

P.19:

NPR KUOW / 'It is not OK,' Seattle union leader responds to transit drug study
https://kuow.org/stories/it-is-not-ok-s ... drug-study

.. Price added that it's "not OK," because the drugs are killing people, and the issue is placing mental stress on drivers.

Seattle-area transit operators have long raised alarms over drug use aboard buses.

In 2022, KING5 reported that formal reports about drug use from King County Metro's drivers rose in recent years:
44 reports in 2019; 73 in 2020; and 398 in 2021. KOMO further reported that Metro's data for 2022 showed 1,885 reports of drug use on buses. Also, 16 operators filed workers' comp claims by March 2023. The UW study on Seattle buses and trains also began in March.

The study out of the UW's Environmental and Occupational Health Science Department focused on environmental factors and work conditions. It did not deal with health effects or toxicity from exposure to drugs. Experts did say, that while there are little or no standards for such exposures, they would not expect the low levels detected on buses and trains to be of risk to anyone.

Researchers monitored surface samples from buses and trains in Seattle and Portland. They also placed air monitors around operators and passenger areas. While traces of fentanyl were found in some samples, methamphetamine was detected in nearly 100% of samples. Researchers recommended upgrading air filters to MERV 13 or higher, as well as enhancing cleaning protocols. They also suggested mental health support for drivers. ..

^^i have an ORCA pass for bus service. A few weeks ago my grdaughter+i were on a few of these busses.
The busses are great, the service is great.

The drugs and horrors are real and common. It’s awful what people are doing to themselves and others.
Air travel must be about the same.

“Nothing to see here.”


NPR KUOW / Why does the US drug czar think WA schools should stock Narcan like fire extinguishers?”
https://kuow.org/stories/why-does-the-u ... inguishers

The United States’ top drug control official is in Washington state this week to sound the alarm on the threat of fentanyl — especially for kids this school year.

Dr. Rahul Gupta, the director of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, carries Narcan with him at all times. It’s a life-saving medication that counteracts an opioid overdose.

Gupta spoke Tuesday at a back-to-school town hall at the Issaquah School District centered on fighting the nation’s growing fentanyl crisis. He appeared alongside U.S. Rep. Kim Schrier, a Democrat from Washington’s 8th Congressional District, and Martin Turney, chief of finance and operations for Issaquah schools.

Gupta’s visit comes on the heels of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data showing the death toll of the opioid crisis is rising faster in Washington state than anywhere else in the country.

As of Tuesday, King County reported 786 fentanyl overdose deaths so far this year — nearly 200 more than at this time last year.

And children are becoming more vulnerable to the powerful synthetic opioid that is increasingly being found in counterfeit prescription drugs. CDC data shows more than 1,500 kids and teens died from fentanyl in 2021 — four times higher than in 2018.

Gupta zeroed in on the dangers when kids buy drugs off the street — like Adderall to help them study before a big test or Xanax at a party — that could be laced with fentanyl.

One small thing everyone can do — from students to parents — is have Narcan on hand, just like he does.

“It may not be you,” Gupta said. “It may be your friend in school, or at a party, or at the mall. It may be a stranger, worse enough, that you may not know, but you can save their life.”

Gupta wants to see schools establish curriculum warnings against fentanyl and drugs in general, and make Narcan a visible fixture in schools, like a fire extinguisher or defibrillator.

Turney said all security staff at Issaquah’s middle and high schools carry Narcan with them, and staff spread the word about the risks of fentanyl.

“We try to make sure that students are aware of the resources available to them,” he said. “Over time, what we’ve noticed is students who are aware of an issue or they believe they can help, they just pick up and connect with those crisis lines and it can be a world of help to them and their fellow students.”

God have mercy.

When i added these 2 reports, my focus was on how DANGEROUS DRUGS AND ALL THAT GOES WITH THEM are being so normalized in the general population, INCLUDING PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

i find the NORMALIZATION and ACCOMODATION horrifying, esp among young innocents.
They deserve abundant PROTECTION and SEPARATION from evil.

Policies that create life where EVERYONE IS LIVING EQUALLY IN GUTTERS, are not acceptable policies.
It should be UNTHINKABLE.

Drugs are not being normalized in public schools. There is a constant drumbeat against drugs in schools. And today’s students now in 2023 abuse drugs and alcohol at lower levels than past generations. Depending on how you measure it, drug use among teens probably peaked in the 1980s and has declined substantially since. Teen overdoses may be up, but that is because the drugs have changed, not because the kids have changed.

What has happened very recently is that fentanyl has gotten super cheap and is flooding in from China. The raw ingredients are manufactured in China and either shipped here where they are manufactured into Fentanyl, or to Canada and Mexico where they are manufactured and then come across the border. Since fentanyl is so much cheaper and more potent than other drugs like cocaine, drug dealers now spike everything with it. So in the past if you wanted to sell cocaine you had to sell reasonably high quality cocaine or people wouldn’t buy it because they wouldn’t get high. That meant bringing it in from Colombia in large quantities because cocaine is not super highly potent. Now they can take cocaine, dilute it way down with other inert white powders like baby formula or laxatives and then lace it with cheap fentanyl to make it potent again. So then you have cheap potent fake cocaine that gets sold for the real thing but costs the dealers way less. So people do cocaine who are used to being sloppy about it since cocaine overdoses are rare, and they end up getting fentanyl and ODing and dying. Most street drugs these days are getting laced with fentanyl for that reason, it is much cheaper for dealers to make.

So even though kids are not really using drugs at any higher rates than previous generations, and probably lower in a lot of cases, the drugs floating around are FAR more deadly because they are all laced with fentanyl. Teen behavior is not worse, the world has just gotten a LOT more dangerous.

Same thing is happening to street junkies. They used to be mostly heroin junkies and while it was possible to overdose and die of heroin, it was fairly rare because heroin was expensive and dealers weren’t going to jack up the potency for no reason. But now with fentanyl in everything and junkies also taking straight fentanyl, overdoses are far more common since fentanyl is so much more potent and also so cheap. Society hasn’t changed much, the nature of the drugs have changed. There are probably no drugs available that are not laced with fentanyl these days except for maybe pot that is sold in commercial pot stores where it is legal. It has gotten into everything because dealers cut every more expensive drug with cheap fentanyl.

In any event, narcan is cheap and school security should be carrying it with them since they are almost certainly going to be the first ones responding to any sort of chaos or emergency in a school. My school has 1800 students and two security officers who wear the typical police type belt with radios, pepper spray, handcuffs, etc. and putting a narcan pouch on there with all the other gear makes sense. It is just a precautionary thing. Of all the endless security things that happen in a school, overdoses are uncommon. I don’t remember any last year. There were a bazillion kids caught vaping in the bathrooms and parking lots, and a few caught smoking pot outside, but I don’t remember any fentanyl overdoses. What the security at my school deals with more than 50% of the time is kids who defiantly violate the no cell phone in class policies and get sent out to detention for that reason. And maybe sometimes girls (usually girls) who are way out of dress code and defiantly stubborn about it and so security gets called to deal with them.

Put it this way, if there was some kid who died of a fentanyl overdose in a school and the school had chosen not to have narcan on hand when it is cheap and available at any drug store, that would be an enormous lawsuit waiting to happen. Enormous. So this is probably being driven by school district lawyers more than anything.

[Josh]

I disagree that Narcan should be as common as fire extinguishers.

My home has various poisons in it. We keep them out of reach of children. And then we teach them, that’s poison and it will hurt you very bad / kill you.

What we don’t do is have poisons laying around and then a well stocked shelf of remedies for every type of poison imaginable. My house doesn’t have any Narcan in it either.

[Soloist]

I disagree that Narcan should be as common as fire extinguishers.

My home has various poisons in it. We keep them out of reach of children. And then we teach them, that’s poison and it will hurt you very bad / kill you.

What we don’t do is have poisons laying around and then a well stocked shelf of remedies for every type of poison imaginable. My house doesn’t have any Narcan in it either.

But you do stock some with by your hand or your wife. She at least knows accidents happen.
Either way, you take measures to protect your children knowing they are foolish, unsaved and need to be taught.

[Josh]

I disagree that Narcan should be as common as fire extinguishers.

My home has various poisons in it. We keep them out of reach of children. And then we teach them, that’s poison and it will hurt you very bad / kill you.

What we don’t do is have poisons laying around and then a well stocked shelf of remedies for every type of poison imaginable. My house doesn’t have any Narcan in it either.

But you do stock some with by your hand or your wife. She at least knows accidents happen.
Either way, you take measures to protect your children knowing they are foolish, unsaved and need to be taught.

Yes. I think it’s entirely reasonable to teach that cocaine and heroin are dangerous and can kill you.

I don’t think it’s reasonable to try to make it “safe” to shoot up illegal street drugs.