Grace wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 7:20 am
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:44 pm
Yes, we used to do that back in the good old days before "wokeness" ruined things.
In 1959, nineteen year old David Isom swam at a public pool in Florida where the clerk at the entrance and white lifeguard accommodated him in violation of the segregation laws in Florida at that time. When word got out the facility manager closed and cleared the facility, drained all the water, had it scrubbed and refilled and re-chlorinated the pool under the direction of the city manager This is David Isom below
A decade earlier attempts by black youth to swim in a "whites only" public pool in Saint Louis sparked an angry race riot and beatings by police
The better treatment of blacks came long before the new mantra of wokeness came on the scene.
In comparing the biological males competing in women's sports, sharing young women's locker rooms, showers, and restrooms, with how blacks were treated years ago, are you saying it is okay for biological men to engage in these activities? Do you think it is be okay for a strong 6ft. male who still has male body parts, share a locker room, shower, or restroom with young woman, who are smaller and not as strong? Is it okay for biological males to take away scholarships from young women, who worked hard in their sport.
It is true that black people were treated horribly in the past, and it was unconscionable. But no one is suggesting anything be done to biological men, who now claim to be women, to be treated the same way as the black people in the past. The black people could not control their skin color and them being treated horribly had nothing to do with their actions or behavior, just their skin color. Biological men who now claim to be women, have full control of their choices, actions and behavior. Vastly different from black people and their skin color, which they have no control over.
Making comparisons between the two isn't remotely relevant to this subject. They are two completely different issues.
Personally I think there are very real issues of fairness in competitive sport related to performance enhancing drugs of which testosterone is one (there are many others). And that if we don't allow biological women to dope with testosterone like the East Germans used to do, then we shouldn't allow competitors who do so naturally either. So if I were in charge of the rules for various
competitive sports I wouldn't allow competitors who currently have testosterone levels above accepted parameters for women and who didn't develop male musculature and bone structure during puberty under the influence of male testosterone levels. I'm talking specifically about
competitive sport so from HS varsity sports up through the NCAA and into national, international and Olympic type competition. So basketball players, sprinters, swimmers, etc. who developed male musculature and bone structure through puberty under male levels of testosterone shouldn't be playing in competitive NCAA sports. But recreational sports are fine (intramurals, YMCA leagues, etc.). I think that is a fair accommodation and the price one has to pay if one is trans. Few people in this country actually participate in competitive level sport anyway. Those are my own views, but I'm not in charge of anything.
For recreational sport (I coached recreational girls soccer for 12 years) I don't think there is any real issue, especially for youth. I think all kids should be welcome to play recreational sports. All sports have rules of conduct. You can't use your size or strength to trip, block, or foul someone else in soccer. You will get yellow and red cards and get tossed out. If there are issues with aggressive play they can be dealt with within the game. People who don't want some 10 year old trans kid playing on a recreational soccer team are just being bigoted. There are no competitive issues since there isn't competition, it is just recreation. And if you haven't been involved in youth sport you may not realize this, but there are very clear and bright lines between recreational and competitive youth sports. Recreational team rosters, for example, are just assigned through random lottery and have equal playing time rules so as a coach you don't pick your players and give all your kids equal paying time regardless of how good or bad they are. Competitive teams select and recruit their players and design their rosters and playing time around winning. They have paid coaches, competitive facilities. And there are local, regional, state, and national levels of competition that one works up through.
Locker rooms can be dealt with on a case by case basis with some common sense and good will. We are mostly talking about swimming since most other recreational sport doesn't involve locker rooms. In 12 years of coaching youth soccer there was never once a single locker room involved and most recreational playing fields just have porta potties or the like. And schools can figure out how to accommodate this sort of thing. Just put in a separate private changing room/bathroom for trans kids if necessary for PE, etc. If people think it is important they can pay the tax dollars to build such facilities. If not then let people figure it out locally with a little common sense.
I do think there is enormous bigotry around this issue on the right that is absolutely no different from the bigoty that drove segregation and things like shutting down most of the public pools across the entire American south rather than to integrate them. Yes, that happened. White folks in the south wanted NO pools rather than integrated ones and literally thousands of large fabulous pools and aquatic centers were shut down in this country rather than to allow a single black citizen to use them. We are seeing the same exact thing today with attempts to exclude trans people from any sort of public life. And in that category I would include the rash of new laws outlawing trans minors across the south and all the hysteria about bathrooms and locker rooms.
