Amish Covid | Full Measure

[Bootstrap]

Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

And the greeting was given to show love one to another.

In the last days the love of many will grow cold.

Jesus clearly promoted both love and the Sabbath. But I think Jesus also thought we should take the needs of people into account in the way we observe the Sabbath.

Let me repeat the quote with a little more context:

On the Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to make their way, picking some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

He said to them, “Have you never read what David and those who were with him did when he was in need and hungry — how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest and ate the bread of the Presence —which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests —and also gave some to his companions?” Then he told them, “The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. So then, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Let me also add this:

One Sabbath, when he went in to eat at the house of one of the leading Pharisees, they were watching him closely. There in front of him was a man whose body was swollen with fluid. In response, Jesus asked the law experts and the Pharisees, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?” But they kept silent. He took the man, healed him, and sent him away. And to them, he said, “Which of you whose son or ox falls into a well, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?” They could find no answer to these things.

To me, a little flexibility in the way we observe the Sabbath is in order if it reduces the risk of killing someone. That was my point. I would not want our church gatherings to be the source of avoidable deaths. I think that is consistent with Jesus' teaching on the Sabbath. Let me put it this way: if we had known, in advance, that Susan would die, would we say that's simply the cost of the way we do Sabbath, or would we consider changing something?

That said, I do think each of our congregations has to wrestle with these questions, and we may come to different conclusions.

[Neto]

I haven't seen any evidence of "herd immunity" here in Holmes County. On the contrary, what I've witnessed is the sickness going through the "herd", taking some, and leaving others, sometimes inexplicably.

[Ken]

I haven't seen any evidence of "herd immunity" here in Holmes County. On the contrary, what I've witnessed is the sickness going through the "herd", taking some, and leaving others, sometimes inexplicably.

No viral disease in history has ever been wiped out by natural herd immunity alone. Not polio, not smallpox, not chicken pox, not the flu. They might wax and wane with outbreaks occurring over and over and maybe long periods of hiatus. But they don’t get wiped out via natural immunity. They only viral diseases that have ever actually been defeated were beaten by widespread or universal use of vaccines. I doubt Covid is going to be the disease that breaks that rule.

[Dan Z]

Thanks for the video post jcxm360 - the report felt fair and respectful of the plain perspective on the issue. I think the Amish response to COVID, as expressed, was consistent with their views on separation and distrust of the broader society, and with their reliance on "folk wisdom" over and against mainstream initiatives.

Personally, I disagree with Mr. Lapp's implied conclusion that the Amish response was somehow smarter than those who chose to heed public health advice (a choice that Mr. Lapp recognized benefitted the Amish in a number of ways)...but I do think the choice made sense in light of the Amish worldview - and while I disagree with some of it, I respect the choice based on those grounds, and support their right to make it.

[Soloist]

To me, a little flexibility in the way we observe the Sabbath is in order if it reduces the risk of killing someone. That was my point. I would not want our church gatherings to be the source of avoidable deaths. I think that is consistent with Jesus' teaching on the Sabbath. Let me put it this way: if we had known, in advance, that Susan would die, would we say that's simply the cost of the way we do Sabbath, or would we consider changing something?

That said, I do think each of our congregations has to wrestle with these questions, and we may come to different conclusions.

No one is saying we can't be flexible. If you know the reason Susan would die is due to the Roman army hunting for her, would you not hold church in her last hours?

What about if every single time you met, Susan would die, how many Sabbaths would you not have? Why is Susan going to die? is it something that can be changed? no one is saying the specific practice is immutable.

[Wade]

Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

And the greeting was given to show love one to another.

In the last days the love of many will grow cold.

Jesus clearly promoted both love and the Sabbath. But I think Jesus also thought we should take the needs of people into account in the way we observe the Sabbath.

Let me repeat the quote with a little more context:

On the Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to make their way, picking some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

He said to them, “Have you never read what David and those who were with him did when he was in need and hungry — how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest and ate the bread of the Presence —which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests —and also gave some to his companions?” Then he told them, “The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. So then, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Let me also add this:

One Sabbath, when he went in to eat at the house of one of the leading Pharisees, they were watching him closely. There in front of him was a man whose body was swollen with fluid. In response, Jesus asked the law experts and the Pharisees, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?” But they kept silent. He took the man, healed him, and sent him away. And to them, he said, “Which of you whose son or ox falls into a well, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?” They could find no answer to these things.

To me, a little flexibility in the way we observe the Sabbath is in order if it reduces the risk of killing someone. That was my point. I would not want our church gatherings to be the source of avoidable deaths. I think that is consistent with Jesus' teaching on the Sabbath. Let me put it this way: if we had known, in advance, that Susan would die, would we say that's simply the cost of the way we do Sabbath, or would we consider changing something?

That said, I do think each of our congregations has to wrestle with these questions, and we may come to different conclusions.

We don't the Sabbath isn't something most Christians partake in. Maybe if I knew some Jews...?

[Josh]

The idea it’s somehow healthier to quit meeting and seeing other humans face to face is absurd.

[Bootstrap]

To me, a little flexibility in the way we observe the Sabbath is in order if it reduces the risk of killing someone. That was my point. I would not want our church gatherings to be the source of avoidable deaths. I think that is consistent with Jesus' teaching on the Sabbath. Let me put it this way: if we had known, in advance, that Susan would die, would we say that's simply the cost of the way we do Sabbath, or would we consider changing something?

That said, I do think each of our congregations has to wrestle with these questions, and we may come to different conclusions.

No one is saying we can't be flexible. If you know the reason Susan would die is due to the Roman army hunting for her, would you not hold church in her last hours?

I would, but I might not advertise the service prominently because I don't want the Roman army to find her. Knowing the risks involved, I might adapt. And I don't know if or when they will catch her, but I would still try to protect her. Of course, this is a matter of discernment, under certain circumstances having a service in open is the right thing to do even in the face of that kind of risk.

What about if every single time you met, Susan would die, how many Sabbaths would you not have? Why is Susan going to die? is it something that can be changed? no one is saying the specific practice is immutable.

Those are the right questions to ask. But I would not want to feel that Susan died because we were unwilling to adapt. Holding services outside, opening windows, more distance between people when inside, face masks, having one person serve at a potluck so that you don't have everyone standing over the table and breathing in close proximity ... there are a lot of things to consider. The nurses in any congregation can be helpful on this kind of thing.

Our congregation is mostly vaccinated. We are meeting inside now, with face masks, we are singing, we have more distance between family units than we would otherwise, there is a Zoom option for people who choose not to attend in person (or who have moved away and like to join us remotely). At potlucks, we have one person serve.

I imagine an Amish congregation would make different choices. But I think what Jesus taught implies that a good shepherd watches out for the health of his flock. This disease is real.

[Josh]

I would, but I might not advertise the service prominently because I don't want the Roman army to find her. Knowing the risks involved, I might adapt. And I don't know if or when they will catch her, but I would still try to protect her. Of course, this is a matter of discernment, under certain circumstances having a service in open is the right thing to do even in the face of that kind of risk.

But is there any evidence that meeting for church has been killing people?

I'm 100% aware of everyone who's died in my congregation and in a few other congregations in my denomination. Nobody has died because they caught COVID by attending a church service. Most deaths have been non-COVID. For those who did die of COVID - they caught it and died when we weren't meeting for church at all, or meeting in tiny groups of 10 (and the afflicted people not attending).

Those are the right questions to ask. But I would not want to feel that Susan died because we were unwilling to adapt. Holding services outside, opening windows, more distance between people when inside, face masks, having one person serve at a potluck so that you don't have everyone standing over the table and breathing in close proximity ... there are a lot of things to consider. The nurses in any congregation can be helpful on this kind of thing.

I agree we shouldn't be unwilling to adapt. But I don't agree we need to adapt by having facemasks or enforcing 6 foot social distancing. We don't have any evidence people have died because our church held potlucks and went back to the normal ways of dishing out food.

I imagine an Amish congregation would make different choices. But I think what Jesus taught implies that a good shepherd watches out for the health of his flock. This disease is real.

I agree. My church took a much more cautious approach than the Amish churches around us did; but I think they still did a good job of being good shepherds. Their people seem to have enjoyed very good health, including good social health amongst their young people, which is an area where out church has suffered due to accepting lockdowns and suspending meetings and youth group last year. The Amish definitely believe it is a real disease; they just don't think ending church meetings and doing token measures like six-foot social distancing (an unscientific, pointless exercise) is the right way to care for their flocks.

[JohnHurt]

I agree. My church took a much more cautious approach than the Amish churches around us did; but I think they still did a good job of being good shepherds. Their people seem to have enjoyed very good health, including good social health amongst their young people, which is an area where out church has suffered due to accepting lockdowns and suspending meetings and youth group last year. The Amish definitely believe it is a real disease; they just don't think ending church meetings and doing token measures like six-foot social distancing (an unscientific, pointless exercise) is the right way to care for their flocks.

I thought the video was great! The Amish live by their faith, and put it into action.

When I have a medical problem that is appropriate, I will go to my Amish doctor, who uses Iridology to diagnose my illness. I am always amazed at how well this technique works. He then tells me the herbs I need to heal my condition. His diagnosis is his charity to others, and so it is free of charge.

Out of all of the Christian sects, the Amish are the closest ones to creating a working Christian community, separate from the world. They avoid the insurance system, banking, doctors, vaccines, and many of the snares of this world.

I wonder if you know their religious reasons for avoiding the modern medical system and vaccines. i would be interested in their statements on this.

I keep the Sabbath Day holy, because Christ did the same. So I don't fit in with most churches, including the Amish or Mennonite.

I avoid vaccines because they contain aborted fetal cell tissue and are unclean, and God tells me to not to touch them.

2 Cor 6:(17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

I use echinacea, elderberry, and colloidal silver to defeat a virus, as they boost my immune system. I also use essential oils, like lavender oil, lemongrass oil, and oil of frankincense for healing purposes. Many of the essential oils used for healing are in the Bible.

I have also been healed by a Sabbath keeping church, with the anointing of oil and the hands of the elders in prayer on me.

James 5:(14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

(15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Being healed by the church was an amazing experience. There is power in a believing prayer.

And I trust in these words for my health, as He has never failed me, not one time:

Psalms 103:(2) Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

(3) Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Exodus 15:(26) And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

That is a promise that He is sure to keep.

I have already had COVID, it was just a flu. There is a 99.97% survival rate. It is not a big deal if you are healthy. They just want to sell a lot of mRNA vaccines that don't really work. I suppose you heard that Colin Powell died from COVID, yet was fully vaccinated. Eric Clapton was injured by the COVID vaccine, like many others. The "cure" is worse than the disease.

Sweden did not do lockdowns and has had almost no COVID deaths. Israel has one of the highest vaccination rates, and has a high COVID death rate. So something is definitely wrong with their approach.

They are mandating the vaccines to get us to use a "vaccine passport", which is a global ID they can tie to a social credit system. It is not about COVID at all, it is about control.

I suppose the Amish won't have a "vaccine passport" either. Good for them!

Thank you for your posts.

John