Should Mennonite colleges train for "leadership"?

[joshuabgood]

I am strongly in favor of leadership training. I have benefited from serving under leaders who were effective. And I have also served under leaders who were less effective.

I don't think charisma and "out spokenness" is necessary for effective leadership btw. And the fellow saying "pick me pick me" is also not usually the best leader either. Jim Collins demonstrated this in his work.

An underlying question here is, "What is effective leadership?"

[Neto]

Russia Mennonites in Ukraine had an extensive educational system including universities and a medical school. (See Chester Weaver’s talks on the topic at AIC ’16 and ’17.)

Despite this, spiritual life was rather stagnant. Those who made the trek to America tended to be the least educated. Of note is that no ordained ministers migrated over.

My great grandfather, who came over in 1874, and then again (with the family) in 1885, was a doctor in Russia. But the interest in Biblical education had faded over the years, and the spiritual training given to children, or even ministers was severely lacking. When spiritual life awakened once again, Biblical education became a focus of interest.
Actually, the first to emigrate also tended to be the landless class. The society was already stressed to the breaking point when the Russian government freed the serfs, which thrust many more landless people into the economic environment. The first new colony of predominately Mennonite Brethren families (in the Kuban) was settled during this time of social upheaval & unrest. Also, some entire congregations migrated as a whole, the most notable of which is the Alexanderval (SP?) congregation, which had also earlier emigrated as a group from Prussia to Russia. I haven't kept note of a list of names, but various mentions have been made in the MB history book (by P. A. Friesen) I'm reading of ministers who emigrated, even in the early years. (This book was the result of 25 years of research, conducted between the years 1885 until it was published in 1910. I believe that the author was still living in Russia at the time of publishing. What is interesting in hindsight is the attitude toward the emigration - he almost calls it a 'sickness'. What a difference the following 10 or so years would make!)

[Ernie]

But the problem in the Plain circles is that they have not developed any institutions of higher learning (I am referring to schools that are organized and administered under a conference), and they generally lack the conference level organization necessary to do so. Of course, there must first be a perceived value place on higher education and a confidence in the institutions that offer it.

There are conferences that are organized well, but they believe that only their conference run Bible schools are the safe places for young adults to get any post-secondary education.

The Plain people who are open to broader post-secondary education do not have the organization that is needed.

[Ernie]

But specifically in respect to "leadership training", here is what I should have said right off - I think that the problem with it is that there is a lack of focus on "Pastoral Training". The result is that we have "good leaders", "good evangelists", and "good preachers", but few real PASTORS.

Some of the best pastoral training is to spend a couple years at a place like Fresh Start Training Center.

[MaxPC]

But specifically in respect to "leadership training", here is what I should have said right off - I think that the problem with it is that there is a lack of focus on "Pastoral Training". The result is that we have "good leaders", "good evangelists", and "good preachers", but few real PASTORS.

Some of the best pastoral training is to spend a couple years at a place like Fresh Start Training Center.

I agree with this regarding the need for PASTORS: men who view the world through the lens of the Gospel and put those Biblical teachings into action in their lives, not just in the knowledge of the Bible but in their attitudes and heart reflecting the Bible.

[Neto]

But specifically in respect to "leadership training", here is what I should have said right off - I think that the problem with it is that there is a lack of focus on "Pastoral Training". The result is that we have "good leaders", "good evangelists", and "good preachers", but few real PASTORS.

Some of the best pastoral training is to spend a couple years at a place like Fresh Start Training Center.

I agree with this regarding the need for PASTORS: men who view the world through the lens of the Gospel and put those Biblical teachings into action in their lives, not just in the knowledge of the Bible but in their attitudes and heart reflecting the Bible.

I agree with this, but what I mean by 'pastoral training' is help in knowing how to care for people, to deal with their spiritual needs, generally on a one-on-one basis. (Yes, correction is a part of shepherding, but judging from what I've heard, there is not a particular lack of that in Plain circles. My wife, and as well as others who grew up in the Beachy church, have told me that "the only time the bishop comes to visit is if you are in trouble". That scenario is unknown to me in my MB background.)

[Ernie]

My wife, and as well as others who grew up in the Beachy church, have told me that "the only time the bishop comes to visit is if you are in trouble". That scenario is unknown to me in my MB background.)

Were your MB pastors salaried?

[Neto]

My wife, and as well as others who grew up in the Beachy church, have told me that "the only time the bishop comes to visit is if you are in trouble". That scenario is unknown to me in my MB background.)

Were your MB pastors salaried?

Yes. He was, however, also the only pastor, and the ones from my childhood also all kept gardens, probably in order to supplement their salary.
The congregation we now attend was about the same size (in membership) at the time we started attending there. They had three pastors, plus other non-ordained 'lay leaders' who sometimes helped with the preaching schedule. In the "lay pastor" congregation, none of the pastors ever preached on a Sunday evening or taught Wednesday evening Bible study. The MB paid pastor was responsible for all of these services, and only rarely had a visiting preacher take a service. (Our MB congregation was not in a major Mennonite settlement. Besides one other MB church in a large city about 14 miles away, the next closest MB congregation was 75 miles away, and it was a very small congregation.) The pastor's wife was responsible for over-seeing various women's ministries, as well as the Summer DVBS, which ran for two weeks.
Once, when we children were still fairly young, we three oldest stayed with the pastor & his family for a few days while our parents went to a funeral on the other side of the state. Another pastor invited us over for an evening of fellowship & Bible study. When I was all set to leave for Bible college, that same pastor invited me over for an African meal, to meet an African man who was going to be at the same school. (As a child, he had been a student in the mission school where the pastor's wife had been a teacher before her first husband died of some tropical disease.)
All that said, I HAVE had a couple of pastors here in our lay pastor congregation who have "pastored" me on a couple of occasions. But even counseling engaged couples is "farmed out" to various ministries. To summarize, they are, at least in general, preachers & leaders, not pastors. I'm not suggesting that they have to do it all; I'm just saying that I think that training in the area of pastoral care is, from my observations, more lacking than is leadership training.

[Hats Off]

Some of the best pastoral training is to spend a couple years at a place like Fresh Start Training Center.

I agree with this regarding the need for PASTORS: men who view the world through the lens of the Gospel and put those Biblical teachings into action in their lives, not just in the knowledge of the Bible but in their attitudes and heart reflecting the Bible.

I agree with this, but what I mean by 'pastoral training' is help in knowing how to care for people, to deal with their spiritual needs, generally on a one-on-one basis. (Yes, correction is a part of shepherding, but judging from what I've heard, there is not a particular lack of that in Plain circles. My wife, and as well as others who grew up in the Beachy church, have told me that "the only time the bishop comes to visit is if you are in trouble". That scenario is unknown to me in my MB background.)

In our OO churches, the only time your name is mentioned is when you are in the baptismal class, when the wedding bans are published, or when you are in trouble. I had recently commented on this so was surprised (delighted?, amused) when the pastor at a conservative Mennonite church addressed me and the other old man by name and asked us if he was correct with a statement he had made.

[Ernie]

In our OO churches, the only time your name is mentioned is when you are in the baptismal class, when the wedding bans are published, or when you are in trouble. I had recently commented on this so was surprised (delighted?, amused) when the pastor at a conservative Mennonite church addressed me and the other old man by name and asked us if he was correct with a statement he had made.

And can you tell us again why you have felt called to stay in the OO church?