Illegal alien arrivals now greater than American births?

[Ken]

Mr Franklin seems focused on language and ethnic racial background, which was not the gist of what I posted at all, despite numerous attempts by other posters to take the conversation there.

I see you are no exception. America is already a very diverse country with different languages, races, and many different ethnic groups. The people who are already here (the American births) represent a diverse group. The illegal aliens also represent diverse groups. There is nothing to "see" or discuss there.

Franklin was complaining about the "Great Replacement" of the English by Germans in Pennsylvania and all the ills that would bring.

[Josh]

Mr Franklin seems focused on language and ethnic racial background, which was not the gist of what I posted at all, despite numerous attempts by other posters to take the conversation there.

I see you are no exception. America is already a very diverse country with different languages, races, and many different ethnic groups. The people who are already here (the American births) represent a diverse group. The illegal aliens also represent diverse groups. There is nothing to "see" or discuss there.

Franklin was complaining about the "Great Replacement" of the English by Germans in Pennsylvania and all the ills that would bring.

I'll repeat myself.

Mr Franklin was focused on different ethnic groups and races and language groups. I am not, and my original post in this thread was not.

Please stop muddying the waters.

[Grace]

Interesting article in the Daily Mail.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... risis.html

[Bootstrap]

Unfortunately I have to sort of tune you out, because you pull out all this stuff that I barely even understand... basically, everyone to the right of your opinions is Hitler. There's nothing I can do to work with that.

That's a lie that you tell a lot about me. You should stop doing that. I have not called you a Nazi. And it's an "us versus them" political enmity narrative. Please stop doing this. If I am wrong, show me one place where I have ever called you a Nazi. But you cannot. Because I never have.

I do not believe that conservatives are Nazis, not at all. I do, however, believe that some of today's conservatives are embracing phrases and lines of thought that Republicans considered anathema 10 or 15 years ago. And some of these phrases are prominent in Nazi propaganda and white supremacist propaganda. I will never call someone a Nazi for caring about abortion or marriage or balancing budgets. And I don't think I have ever called anyone a white supremacist or a Nazi here.

But we've reached this weird point where people who talk a lot about dictators and freedom get really upset if we try to look at actual Nazis and Communists and what they did by reading what they wrote and said. If Nazis and Communists were the threat we thought they were in the 1950s - and I think they were - we should be very interested in what that threat was and how it worked. Not with glib slogans warning us that Covid vaccines will make us Nazis, but by studying what Nazis actually taught and how they promoted these ideas.

You seem to want to drown out any discussion of real Nazis and real white supremacists. Even though nobody is calling you those things. And you seem to like to defend people who really are echoing these things. When I illustrate the mainstreaming of these thoughts in modern MAGA Republicanism by showing people literally waving Nazi flags or even literally quoting or praising Hitler, you take that personally. Why? I assume you do not identify with these people or causes. If this is not your identity, why does it hurt you when I criticize them?

I hope we have a shared identity in Christ. I hope we can both seek first the Kingdom of God. These secondary political identities are not helpful for that. When I criticize them, or point out ways I think they are trying to manipulate us, that's a big part of what I am doing.

So let's please not say that critical thinking is not allowed here when it involves themes used by Nazis or white supremacists.

[Bootstrap]

Franklin was complaining about the "Great Replacement" of the English by Germans in Pennsylvania and all the ills that would bring.

There are indeed some communities in Pennsylvania where people speak Deitsch and don't dress like "normal Americans". Are they replacing me?

[Josh]

Franklin was complaining about the "Great Replacement" of the English by Germans in Pennsylvania and all the ills that would bring.

There are indeed some communities in Pennsylvania where people speak Deitsch and don't dress like "normal Americans". Are they replacing me?

They aren’t migrants trying to enter the country, so they are irrelevant per my original post and intent on starting this thread.

I will never call someone a Nazi for caring about abortion or marriage or balancing budgets.

Conservative politics is also about closing the border and controlling illegal migration, and has been for a long time. It’s conspicuous you left that out.

Ultimately, you aren’t the gatekeeper of what is “acceptable” for conservative political discourse. The current events taking place at the border (and in major cities) are a significant event in American history right now, causing large shifts in people’s opinion. The conservative right wing is basically united on this topic. It’s not a fringe opinion nor is it some conspiracy theory.

You seem to want to drown out any discussion of real Nazis and real white supremacists.

Nazis lost a war 8 decades ago. They only exist in history.

Regarding white shorthairs they are tiny and irrelevant and o think it’s best not really speak about them or try to learn about them or repeat their ideology. I have never actually met one in person. I’m not 100% convinced they even exist.

[Bootstrap]

Franklin was complaining about the "Great Replacement" of the English by Germans in Pennsylvania and all the ills that would bring.

There are indeed some communities in Pennsylvania where people speak Deitsch and don't dress like "normal Americans". Are they replacing me?

They aren’t migrants trying to enter the country, so they are irrelevant per my original post and intent on starting this thread.

They were at one point. So were the English and the Scottish. So were my ancestors on both sides.

I will never call someone a Nazi for caring about abortion or marriage or balancing budgets.

Conservative politics is also about closing the border and controlling illegal migration, and has been for a long time. It’s conspicuous you left that out.

Sure. Add that to the list - I will never call someone a Nazi for wanting to close the border and control illegal immigration. I myself want to control illegal immigration by hiring immigration judges and making the process work. I may not believe that a wall is as effective as some people want to believe, but I don't consider that Nazi.

But these days, some media and some politicians are teaching people to feel every immigrant is a personal threat, phrases like "great replacement", "vermin", "infestation", combined with statistics that are simply lies ... that's the kind of thing we do see in authoritarian states. Why are they trying to teach us to feel that way? So we can overlook the cruel things that are done to them? So we can treat these politicians as heroes and saviors? Because stirring up these negative passions gets them power and helps them control the narrative?

Why not have a policy discussion about how best to deal with the people who arrive at our border instead? A discussion with compassion, rooted in our knowledge that God is compassionate, that these people have lives much more difficult than ours, and that God loves them just as much as he loves you and me? That we ourselves are strangers and aliens in this land - and that you yourself are an immigrant?

Ultimately, you aren’t the gatekeeper of what is “acceptable” for conservative political discourse.

But calling it "conservative" doesn't mean it is good. Or Christian. Or even conservative in the way that term was used 10-15 years ago. And offering my opinions does not make me a gatekeeper.

The current events taking place at the border (and in major cities) are a significant event in American history right now, causing large shifts in people’s opinion. The conservative right wing is basically united on this topic. It’s not a fringe opinion nor is it some conspiracy theory.

I gather you do not consider Russell Moore, David French, David Brooks, George Will, David Frum, Jennifer Rubin, Michael Gerson, Bill Kristol, George Bush, Mitt Romney, or Ann Navarro conservatives? To me, many of these people are particularly eloquent about what is good and important about traditional conservatism in America.

And some of that traditional conservatism involves (1) a devotion to fact-based truth and (2) a clear, unambiguous rejection of white supremacist narratives.

Some of this is circular. You seem to use this issue as a litmus test for conservatism. People who don't sound MAGA are no longer conservative because that's not today's "conservative" fad.

[Josh]

The New York Times has an article today titled "African Migration to the U.S. Soars as Europe Cracks Down". (Due to the fact the NYT can be an unreliable source of "fake news", I'm not linking to it directly here, and please read the excerpts below with caution and discretion.)

The young men from Guinea had decided it was time to leave their impoverished homeland in West Africa. But instead of seeking a new life in Europe, where so many African migrants have settled, they set out for what has become a far safer bet of late: the United States.

“Getting into the United States is certain compared to European countries, and so I came,” said Sekuba Keita, 30, who was at a migrant center in San Diego on a recent afternoon after an odyssey that took him by plane to Turkey, Colombia, El Salvador and Nicaragua, then by land to the Mexico-U.S. border.

Hmm. What is their destination?

Mr. Kando, speaking in his native Portuguese, said his goal had not changed. “We’re trusting in God that a miracle will happen,” he said, “and we will reach Portland.”

Ah. They are aiming at trying to enter one of the bigger cities (that has an overwhelming crisis of unaffordable housing and homelessness.

[Josh]

They were at one point. So were the English and the Scottish. So were my ancestors on both sides.

And as I've made clear in other posts, I'm not calling for a mass deportation, and none of us are responsible for our ancestors' conduct. Just ourselves.

But these days, some media and some politicians are teaching people to feel every immigrant is a personal threat, phrases like "great replacement", "vermin", "infestation", combined with statistics that are simply lies ... that's the kind of thing we do see in authoritarian states. Why are they trying to teach us to feel that way? So we can overlook the cruel things that are done to them? So we can treat these politicians as heroes and saviors? Because stirring up these negative passions gets them power and helps them control the narrative?

I have not presented individual migrants as a personal threat (although many are, but that hasn't been my general position). However, in the aggregate, yes, they drive down wages and drive up the cost of housing. They are more likely to consume public resources, which are already stretched thin. They end up relying on government assistance, contrary the narrative that they "boost the economy".

It is acceptable to talk about what groups do, particularly a group that is defined as "a group of people who share only one thing in common, which is that they have violated immigration laws".

Why not have a policy discussion about how best to deal with the people who arrive at our border instead? A discussion with compassion, rooted in our knowledge that God is compassionate, that these people have lives much more difficult than ours, and that God loves them just as much as he loves you and me? That we ourselves are strangers and aliens in this land - and that you yourself are an immigrant?

I am choosing that the discussion should be about how to prevent illegal arrivals and prevent them entering the country.

I never entered a country illegally. At one point I was trying to live in Montréal permanently, but wasn't able to obtain permanent residency. I worked for the remainder of the validity of my work visa and then exited.

I have never made this discussion about legal migration or saying it should be prevented, either (although a lot of "legal migration" in America has serious problems, too). This topic is solely about illegal alien arrivals vs the needs of every person already established in America.

Of course God loves every person as much as he loves you and me. However, God decided that mankind will be divided into nations, tribes, and tongues and live at different places around the earth, not all gather in one giant city. And God has not dictated that national borders of migration laws are somehow wrong or immoral. Indeed, when he came to the earth, he and his family were busy complying with such laws by registering at their place of birth as the Roman empire decreed.

I gather you do not consider Russell Moore, David French, David Brooks, George Will, David Frum, Jennifer Rubin, Michael Gerson, Bill Kristol, George Bush, Mitt Romney, or Ann Navarro conservatives? To me, many of these people are particularly eloquent about what is good and important about traditional conservatism in America.

None of those people really represent conservatives. Many of them agitate against the core of what both evangelical Christians stand for and what conservatives as a whole seem to want. They represent a fringe of "conservatism" that seems to more consistently side with liberals. David French is a great example - the only "conservative" position he seems to hold is to consistently agitate for more wars; indeed, his job experience prior to becoming an opinion columnist was as a military office in the failed, fatal Iraq invasion.

Some of this is circular. You seem to use this issue as a litmus test for conservatism. People who don't sound MAGA are no longer conservative because that's not today's "conservative" fad.

This has nothing to do with MAGA, and you do yourself a disservice when you say that. Do you really think it's a good thing if the vast majority of people (including many independents) who think we shouldn't have a wide open border and millions flooding the country can only find one politician and one political alignment - the MAGA one - that represents their views?

[Josh]

Delving further into that article:

Mr. Keita, from Guinea, said that he had sold his small laundry-detergent factory in Kankanto afford the trip. “Working here, I will be able to better myself and provide for us,” he said.

Mohammed Aram, 33, of Sudan, where civil war broke out in April, said that the United States was the best place to start a new life. “Entry to Europe is difficult,” said Mr. Aram, who planned to go to Chicago.

More than a dozen migrants interviewed for this article said that they had surrendered at the border to U.S. agents, who bused them to a processing facility. There, the migrants spent two or three nights waiting their turn to provide personal information to authorities. They were released with documents that indicated they were in deportation proceedings and must go to court on a specific date in the city where they reported they will live.
Finally, the migrants were released to the San Diego center, where they received meals and assistance contacting friends or relatives around the country.

So let me get this straight. They enter the country, are detained, but then get released without any bail, etc.

The migrants are clearly wealthy and are simply seeking even more wealth. This particular person owned a small factory but thinks he can make more money in America. He could have chosen to migrate legally, but didn't.

His goal is getting to a big city (in this case, Portland).

This is the type of behaviour you're defending, Boot. I'm saying that we should perhaps focus more on making sure there are jobs and housing available for people already in America, including making sure families feel they can afford a home and afford to have a baby or two and get married, and focus a lot less on allowing wealthy factory owners from Ghana to break American immigration laws and yet stay in the country.

Nearly 2.5 million migrants crossed the U.S.-Mexico border in the 2023 fiscal year, and about 300,000 migrants were processed by the U.S. Border Patrol in December, the most of any month, stretching resources to the limit. Most people will apply for asylum, which allows them to remain in the United States until the outcome of their cases, issued years down the road.

I'm not sure what the NYT's source is, but they're claiming 2.5 million migrants. That's a lot. Extrapolating December's numbers to the whole year will be 3.6 million. That's even more. And the NYT notes that most plan to apply for asylum, even though it is clear that there aren't really 3.6 million people in the world who will arrange plane tickets from African countries through Turkey and Morocco, then to Nicaragua, and then make an arduous trek across Mexico... all so they can enter the world illegally. If someone really fears for their life and is fleeing persecution, aren't there any closer countries to enter and make an asylum claim?