What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Ken
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT

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HondurasKeiser wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:01 am I am not posting this as an explicit endorsement of Falco's thesis (though again, I think he's on to something). Nevertheless, this came across my transom this morning and it obviously dovetails with his argument:
In the Road to Serfdom, Friedrich Hayek describes the illiberal nature of totalitarian regimes using the Soviet Union and the Third Reich as iconic examples. When the book was written in the mid-1940s these regimes were (and continue to this day to be) considered antithetical to one another on account of where they fell on the political spectrum. Hayek, however, explains that the regimes were much more alike than they were different. What they had in common, and what characterized them more profoundly, was that they were collectivist regimes. The common and most defining feature of collectivist systems according to Hayek is the “deliberate organization of the labors of society for a definite social goal.” What distinguishes different collectivist regimes is the “nature of the goal to which they want to direct the efforts of society.” That collectivist systems seek to organize the “labors of society” towards a singular goal leads them to an “all-overriding desire to give the group the maximum of power to achieve these ends.” This implies a moral or ethical system that places the one goal above all other competing, and thereby subordinate, goals. As a result, the “ends justify the means” “becomes necessarily the supreme rule” to reach the societal goal.

As a result, Communism and National Socialism were not antithetical to each other. They were, rather, the same system albeit with different “definite goals.” The true antithesis to both these systems, and to collectivist systems more broadly for Hayek, is liberalism. To Hayek, liberalism is defined by an inclination towards the individual – and indeed all individuals – relative to the collective, and the many freedoms and negative rights this implies. These rights and freedoms (rights and freedoms that we expect and are accustomed to in the Anglosphere) include: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, freedom of movement, and freedom from arbitrary imprisonment. The latter is particularly important since it harkens to another critical characteristic of liberalism: the rule of law. Hayek explains that, while often misunderstood and misconstrued, the rule of law is simply the principle that the law applies to all individuals equally, that all individuals are equal before the law, and, as importantly, that laws also apply to the state. It is typically easier to understand the liberal rule of law not through its definition, but through its ideal manifestation. Under the rule of law, individuals know how the state will act in any circumstance, and that the state will act in the same way towards all individuals. If an individual breaks a law, they know what the consequences will be. As important, the individual knows what the state will not do, e.g. arbitrarily violate their fundamental freedoms.
The second paragraph discussion about rule of law is excellent. It is also why the common use of the phrase "Law and Order" especially by conservatives is somewhat contradictory.

Both Nazi Germany and the USSR had a tremendous amount of order. They both had giant security apparatuses dedicated to enforcing order in the form of the Gestapo and KGB (and modern regimes like Iran have the same). However they had little or no rule of law as Hayek defines the term. Instead they had concentration camps, gulags, and vast secret police agencies. Law and Order are actually opposite objectives in many ways. In Western Democracies we emphasize law (the Constitution and civil rights) and then live with some disorder as a result. Freedom can be messy. In totalitarian and authoritarian regimes like Nazi Germany, the USSR or modern Iran they emphasize order and dispense with the rule of law to achieve it.

So yes there is definitely that commonality. But I don't see that so much as originating from common economic ideology that you can trace to early 19th century political philosophy of Marx and Hegel. But rather as originating from a common authoritarian impulse shared by all authoritarian regimes of every ideology going back millennia. The Romans had secret police too, as did the Spanish Inquisition.
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Szdfan
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT

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HondurasKeiser wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 8:06 am
Szdfan wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:32 pm The mainstream of scholarship over the 60-70 years has placed fascism and Nazism into the right-wing. There are things that Goldberg has written that I appreciate, but he's an opinion columnist, not a historian and "Liberal Fascism" is not a serious, scholarly work.
I agree SZD, that Goldberg is no scholar - intelligent though he may be. He's right though in pointing out a lot of parallels and similarities between the Fascists and Progressives of early last century - much like Falco is pointing to similar parallels between Marxists and Fascists, much like one can notice parallels between the so-called New Right and Social Democrats. I think there is something to the Horseshoe Theory i.e. the more seeming divergence there exists between ideologies the more similar they become.

Don't limit yourself to binary thinking SZD, don't lock yourself into black and white, Manichean worldview. :D
Who said anything about a binary, Manichean worldview? I wrote earlier in this thread that the extreme ideological right and left of the spectrum echo one another and share some of the same characteristics. I also wrote that both Marxism and fascism are reactions to 19th Century European industrialization. What I don't find convincing is the argument that the two ideologies are branches from the same tree on the Left or that conservatism is innocent of those totalitarian impulses.

It's my understanding that part of Goldberg's argument was that conservatism was immune from fascism because of its commitment to classical liberalism. However, in the aftermath of January 6, he has admitted that he was wrong about that particular argument --

https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/gfil ... t-fascism/
But there’s one important claim that has been rendered utterly wrong. I argued that, contrary to generations of left-wing fearmongering and slander about the right’s fascist tendencies, the modern American right was simply immune to the fascist temptation chiefly because it was too dogmatically committed to the Founders, to constitutionalism, and to classical liberalism generally.

Almost 13 years to the day after publication, Donald Trump proved me wrong.
My view is that generic fascism asserts itself as passion, not reason. Fascism is a highly concentrated and toxic form of populism that manifests itself as the politics of mobs, not manifestos. The ideological constructs used to defend and proselytize fascist ideologies were instrumental, not elemental, to the cause. Whether it was Hitler’s Führerprinzip or Mussolini’s Nietzschean pragmatism, even fascist intellectuals ultimately conceded that ideas were at best secondary considerations, mere marketing to give the naked pursuit of power more credibility and legitimacy.

On January 6, the president of the United States marshaled propaganda and lies to convince a mob that strength and will and violence were required to hold onto power. Sinister, faceless forces were conspiring against the people, and they needed to be confronted regardless of how much it offended the sensibilities of the weak and corrupt. Countless speakers invoked the language of rebirth and vowed to sweep the conspiratorial forces occupying our government. The Buffalo Helmet Viking Guy concluded his prayer in the Senate thus: “Thank you [God] for allowing the United States of America to be reborn. Thank you for allowing us to get rid of the communists, the globalists, and the traitors within our government.”

In the days leading up to January 6, Trump’s coterie, including his one-time national security adviser, raised the specter of martial law to set the nation right. This was in the wake of Trump exhausting all legal remedies in front of scores of judges – many of them conservative – who rejected the president’s often spurious claims. In the year since, the president and his defenders have constructed any number of “stabbed in the back” narratives about how they were robbed by sinister forces that are now using January 6 to oppress the authentic people. Some even try to make Ashli Babbitt into some kind of Horst Wessel-like martyr, a woman who was robbed of her life by the shadowy forces protecting our corrupt order. Countless right-wing populists today openly and unapologetically celebrate an event that marks the end of America’s tradition of the peaceful transfer of power.

Trump continues to use rhetoric that undermines the argument that conservatism is immune or has nothing to do with fascism.

On Veteran's Day, Trump in a speech in New Hampshire called his political opponents "vermin" and warned that “the threat from outside forces is far less sinister, dangerous and grave than the threat from within. Our threat is from within. Because if you have a capable, competent, smart, tough leader, Russia, China, North Korea, they’re not going to want to play with us.” In an interview in early October, Trump said that immigrants were “poisoning the blood of our country.” I think this is deeply concerning rhetoric that echoes the rhetoric of fascism in the 1920s and 30s. While I'm not prepared to called Trump or his supporters "fascist," I do think that he's flirting with some of the same kinds of impulses in his speeches and interviews.
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT

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From the Washington Post
While the rise of far-right populism has played a role, many victims say those on the right account for only a fraction of these anti-Semitic incidents. In December, the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights asked European Jews who was responsible for the most serious incident of anti-Semitic harassment they had experienced: Only 13 percent said it was someone with a far-right political view, while 30 percent said it was an “extremist Muslim” and 21 percent said it was someone with left-wing views.

The fact is anti-Semitism is a growing problem on the left. In Britain this year, three members of the Labour Party resigned after accusing the party and its leader, Jeremy Corbyn, of being — as a former Labour general secretary put it — “institutionally anti-Semitic.” In Washington, congressional Democrats have struggled to confront anti-Semitism within their own ranks. Cywiński said the rise of left-wing anti-Semitism is not surprising. “Do not forget that the Nazi Party in Germany was a party of workers,” he said. “We are many times thinking about the Nazis as far-right. They were also very deeply speaking … to the left, using some leftist language.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... tism-left/

(Paywall warning)
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT

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Szdfan wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 3:13 pm On Veteran's Day, Trump in a speech in New Hampshire called his political opponents "vermin" and warned that “the threat from outside forces is far less sinister, dangerous and grave than the threat from within. Our threat is from within. Because if you have a capable, competent, smart, tough leader, Russia, China, North Korea, they’re not going to want to play with us.” In an interview in early October, Trump said that immigrants were “poisoning the blood of our country.” I think this is deeply concerning rhetoric that echoes the rhetoric of fascism in the 1920s and 30s. While I'm not prepared to called Trump or his supporters "fascist," I do think that he's flirting with some of the same kinds of impulses in his speeches and interviews.
And the opposite political party literally supports the extermination of unborn human beings just as if they were actual vermin, killing them by the thousands and millions with chemicals and surgical tools. If you don't find that troublesome at all, I don't take the concerns with Trump's bluster and bloviation all that seriously.
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT

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mike wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:28 am
Szdfan wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 3:13 pm On Veteran's Day, Trump in a speech in New Hampshire called his political opponents "vermin" and warned that “the threat from outside forces is far less sinister, dangerous and grave than the threat from within. Our threat is from within. Because if you have a capable, competent, smart, tough leader, Russia, China, North Korea, they’re not going to want to play with us.” In an interview in early October, Trump said that immigrants were “poisoning the blood of our country.” I think this is deeply concerning rhetoric that echoes the rhetoric of fascism in the 1920s and 30s. While I'm not prepared to called Trump or his supporters "fascist," I do think that he's flirting with some of the same kinds of impulses in his speeches and interviews.
And the opposite political party literally supports the extermination of unborn human beings just as if they were actual vermin, killing them by the thousands and millions with chemicals and surgical tools. If you don't find that troublesome at all, I don't take the concerns with Trump's bluster and bloviation all that seriously.
First of all, I don't think it's just bluster and blotivation. I think Trump means what he says -- or at least believes that his bluster is going to appeal to enough people to get him elected President which is also something to feel concerned about.

Secondly, I don't think abortion is the only moral issue worth being concerned about and that this "what about abortion?" response to other moral issues is an odd diversion from the topic.
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT

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Falco Knotwise wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:51 am From the Washington Post
While the rise of far-right populism has played a role, many victims say those on the right account for only a fraction of these anti-Semitic incidents. In December, the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights asked European Jews who was responsible for the most serious incident of anti-Semitic harassment they had experienced: Only 13 percent said it was someone with a far-right political view, while 30 percent said it was an “extremist Muslim” and 21 percent said it was someone with left-wing views.

The fact is anti-Semitism is a growing problem on the left. In Britain this year, three members of the Labour Party resigned after accusing the party and its leader, Jeremy Corbyn, of being — as a former Labour general secretary put it — “institutionally anti-Semitic.” In Washington, congressional Democrats have struggled to confront anti-Semitism within their own ranks. Cywiński said the rise of left-wing anti-Semitism is not surprising. “Do not forget that the Nazi Party in Germany was a party of workers,” he said. “We are many times thinking about the Nazis as far-right. They were also very deeply speaking … to the left, using some leftist language.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... tism-left/

(Paywall warning)
Anti-semitism on the Left is a problem. Absolutely.

Do you think that by definition that there are no right-wing workers parties? Are conservatives completely uninterested in blue-collar issues?

Also, I don't really care for Marc Thiessen, who frequently makes rather shallow pro-war mongering arguments. I don't agree with him that criticizing Israeli policy is the same thing as anti-semitism, as he claims elsewhere in that piece.
Last edited by Szdfan on Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT

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Szdfan wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:51 pm First of all, I don't think it's just bluster and blotivation. I think Trump means what he says -- or at least believes that his bluster is going to appeal to enough people to get him elected President which is also something to feel concerned about.

Secondly, I don't think abortion is the only moral issue worth being concerned about and that this "what about abortion?" response to other moral issues is an odd diversion from the topic.
We have already had four years of Trump, so we have an idea of what his rhetoric is. He lies, he doesn't follow through with what he says, he exaggerates, and otherwise demonstrates that his words are often not to be taken seriously.

The problem with calling humans "vermin" is that it denigrates human life, and in my opinion, abortion really is on-topic if that is what the discussion is about. I just find it sad that one could be so opposed to one and not the other.
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT

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mike wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:57 pm
Szdfan wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:51 pm First of all, I don't think it's just bluster and blotivation. I think Trump means what he says -- or at least believes that his bluster is going to appeal to enough people to get him elected President which is also something to feel concerned about.

Secondly, I don't think abortion is the only moral issue worth being concerned about and that this "what about abortion?" response to other moral issues is an odd diversion from the topic.
We have already had four years of Trump, so we have an idea of what his rhetoric is. He lies, he doesn't follow through with what he says, he exaggerates, and otherwise demonstrates that his words are often not to be taken seriously.
Again, even if Trump does not actually believe that, he believes that saying these kinds of things will get him elected. And that's troublesome.
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT

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Szdfan wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:01 pm
mike wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:57 pm
Szdfan wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:51 pm First of all, I don't think it's just bluster and blotivation. I think Trump means what he says -- or at least believes that his bluster is going to appeal to enough people to get him elected President which is also something to feel concerned about.

Secondly, I don't think abortion is the only moral issue worth being concerned about and that this "what about abortion?" response to other moral issues is an odd diversion from the topic.
We have already had four years of Trump, so we have an idea of what his rhetoric is. He lies, he doesn't follow through with what he says, he exaggerates, and otherwise demonstrates that his words are often not to be taken seriously.
Again, even if Trump does not actually believe that, he believes that saying these kinds of things will get him elected. And that's troublesome.
That I agree with.
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT

Post by Ken »

Szdfan wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:01 pm
mike wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:57 pm
Szdfan wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:51 pm First of all, I don't think it's just bluster and blotivation. I think Trump means what he says -- or at least believes that his bluster is going to appeal to enough people to get him elected President which is also something to feel concerned about.

Secondly, I don't think abortion is the only moral issue worth being concerned about and that this "what about abortion?" response to other moral issues is an odd diversion from the topic.
We have already had four years of Trump, so we have an idea of what his rhetoric is. He lies, he doesn't follow through with what he says, he exaggerates, and otherwise demonstrates that his words are often not to be taken seriously.
Again, even if Trump does not actually believe that, he believes that saying these kinds of things will get him elected. And that's troublesome.
I don't think he actually believes much of anything that he says. That is why in my post upstream I labeled Trump as the least ideological politician we have had in some time. He is a political opportunist who says whatever he thinks will get him elected and isn't governed by any overarching ideology.
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