Should negligent parents be punished by the law?

[Ken]

That wasn't my concern. My concern was reducing children born out of wedlock. Can you please stay on topic?

Dig deeper. WHY in your mind are children born out of wedlock a problem in this country? Previously you cited statistics that children of single parents do worse on average than children in 2-parent families. Do you think this is due to the particular circumstances of the conception? Or is it because only one parent is present while the child grows up? What does the evidence say?

And if you want to limit the conversation to children born out of wedlock, then what are the most effective policy options to reduce the incidence of out-of-wedlock births? The only solution you have proposed here is using the legal system to punish people who have children out of wedlock. Which would include everyone from 15 year old rape victims to 30-year old corporate executives deciding to use a sperm donor to have a child. Do you want to punish them?

You haven't provided the slightest details of how this would work. What specifically are you proposing to criminalize and how would you enforce it? And do you have any positive ideas other than punishment for reducing the number of out-of-wedlock births in this country? Policy ideas that have been tried and known to work?

[Josh]

For older men and women who are out of school, policies that support marriage and encourage people to stay married are probably going to be most useful. And those are probably going to be things like supporting education and good paying working class jobs. It isn’t just education that correlates with higher marriage rates and lower divorce rates. Things like union membership

Amish and plain Mennonites don't join unions yet they have very low divorce (& children out of wedlock) rates.

Ken, I think the Bible teaches us that fornication is bad, and that we shouldn't fornicate. I start with that as my guidepost. It is exactly like how it tells us that murder is bad and we shouldn't do it.

[Josh]

That wasn't my concern. My concern was reducing children born out of wedlock. Can you please stay on topic?

Dig deeper. WHY in your mind are children born out of wedlock a problem in this country? Previously you cited statistics that children of single parents do worse on average than children in 2-parent families.

Slight correction - the statistics I cited were for children born out of wedlock; they did not cover children of divorced parents who divorced after they were born, nor unusual situations like a foster or adoptive parent who isn't married.

Do you think this is due to the particular circumstances of the conception? Or is it because only one parent is present while the child grows up? What does the evidence say?

Because God instituted the family as one woman and one man, married for life, as the proper way for children to be created and brought into the world.

Anything that deviates from God's plan will produce bad results.

And if you want to limit the conversation to children born out of wedlock, then what are the most effective policy options to reduce the incidence of out-of-wedlock births?

I am not that interested in "policy" although as a matter of policy, things like murder, adultery, etc. should obviously be illegal and be punished.

The best way to reduce out of wedlock births is to convert more people to Christianity (genuine Christianity, the type that teaches that fornication, divorce, adultery is wrong). So if you really care about this, the best thing to do is try to genuinely convert as many unsaved people to plain Anabaptism as possible.

The only solution you have proposed here is using the legal system to punish people who have children out of wedlock. Which would include everyone from 15 year old rape victims to 30-year old corporate executives deciding to use a sperm donor to have a child. Do you want to punish them?

Ken, what I said was choosing to conceive a child out of wedlock. A rape victim doesn't choose to do that, and it's disgusting for you to even bring it up.

A 30 year old executive who decides to use a sperm donor is making a selfish, evil choice.

You haven't provided the slightest details of how this would work. What specifically are you proposing to criminalize and how would you enforce it? And do you have any positive ideas other than punishment for reducing the number of out-of-wedlock births in this country? Policy ideas that have been tried and known to work?

Ken, it's possible to say that something is evil, bad, or negligent without me proposing model legislation and a regulatory regime. It seems to me that almost every conversation I have with you about a moral issue devolves into you wanting to talk about government policy. I don't think government policy is the right place to start; whilst murder should obviously be illegal, I don't think it starts and ends with "pass a law against murder".

[Ken]

Ken, it's possible to say that something is evil, bad, or negligent without me proposing model legislation and a regulatory regime. It seems to me that almost every conversation I have with you about a moral issue devolves into you wanting to talk about government policy. I don't think government policy is the right place to start; whilst murder should obviously be illegal, I don't think it starts and ends with "pass a law against murder".

Take a look up at the title you chose to use for this thread.

You asked if negligent parents should be PUNISHED BY THE LAW.

That is a policy question not a religious question. If you think it is something even worth contemplating, then you must have some notion of what acts you want to punish and what punishments you have in mind. Do you?

[ohio jones]

Still, "should they be" is a different question from "how should they be."

[Josh]

Ken, it's possible to say that something is evil, bad, or negligent without me proposing model legislation and a regulatory regime. It seems to me that almost every conversation I have with you about a moral issue devolves into you wanting to talk about government policy. I don't think government policy is the right place to start; whilst murder should obviously be illegal, I don't think it starts and ends with "pass a law against murder".

Take a look up at the title you chose to use for this thread.

You asked if negligent parents should be PUNISHED BY THE LAW.

That is a policy question not a religious question.

Let's repeat my original question.

A recent topic on MN was whether or not negligent parents should be punished.

One of the worst acts of negligence any parent can do is decide to have a child out of wedlock; it has been proven over and over how much worse the outcomes are. Choosing to be a single mother is a very poor choice.

If negligence should be punished, then what punishments should be levied on single mothers and single fathers who choose to do this despicable act to their children?

Notice that what I brought up was people who make an intentional decision to have a child out of wedlock; not all the instances that aren't such a decision that you've made several dozen posts in this thread talking about.

Instead, I narrow it down to this:

#1. Fornication is a choice. (There are things like assaults that aren't a choice, and they aren't relevant to this discussion.) Nobody fornicates against their will. Much like choosing to speed, choosing to run a red light, or deciding to text on your phone when driving, it is a choice, and not a good one.

#2. Fornication can result in creating a child out of wedlock. A child born out of wedlock has severe disadvantages, and thus doing that to a child is a selfish, despicable act.

#3. Such a thing does, indeed, cross the threshold required for (criminal) negligence:

To constitute a crime, there must be an actus reus (Latin for "guilty act") accompanied by the mens rea (see concurrence). Negligence shows the least level of culpability, intention being the most serious, and recklessness being of intermediate seriousness, overlapping with gross negligence.

In short, criminal negligence means a bad outcome that happens because of an act you do that you knew could cause such a bad outcome.

#4. Finally, some people on MennoNet expressed the idea that even the slightest negligence on the part of parents should be punished with prison time. I proposed asking a similar question: should this rather obvious area of negligence also be punished?

[Josh]

Ken, it's possible to say that something is evil, bad, or negligent without me proposing model legislation and a regulatory regime. It seems to me that almost every conversation I have with you about a moral issue devolves into you wanting to talk about government policy. I don't think government policy is the right place to start; whilst murder should obviously be illegal, I don't think it starts and ends with "pass a law against murder".

Take a look up at the title you chose to use for this thread.

You asked if negligent parents should be PUNISHED BY THE LAW.

That is a policy question not a religious question. If you think it is something even worth contemplating, then you must have some notion of what acts you want to punish and what punishments you have in mind. Do you?

You repeatedly tried to detour the discussion by talking about:

- Abstinence-only education
- Distributing birth control
- Union membership
- The need for good working-class jobs
- A person who wants to adopt unwanted children
- Married people who get divorced

None of this has anything at all to do with negligence. Pretty much everyone knows that fornication can result in a pregnancy.

[Ken]

Still, "should they be" is a different question from "how should they be."

The two questions go hand in hand. One can't answer the first question in the affirmative without answering the second one.

The question isn't "is out-of-wedlock birth immoral or a sin?" No is it "will people who give birth out of wedlock be punished by God?"

Rather, the question is "should negligent parents be punished by the LAW". Which can only be answered if one defines what specific acts of "negligence" will be criminalized, and what specific penalties are being contemplated. Assuming of course that the objective of the whole exercise is to change behavior and not just gratuitously punish people we disapprove of.

[Ken]

Ken, it's possible to say that something is evil, bad, or negligent without me proposing model legislation and a regulatory regime. It seems to me that almost every conversation I have with you about a moral issue devolves into you wanting to talk about government policy. I don't think government policy is the right place to start; whilst murder should obviously be illegal, I don't think it starts and ends with "pass a law against murder".

Take a look up at the title you chose to use for this thread.

You asked if negligent parents should be PUNISHED BY THE LAW.

That is a policy question not a religious question. If you think it is something even worth contemplating, then you must have some notion of what acts you want to punish and what punishments you have in mind. Do you?

You repeatedly tried to detour the discussion by talking about:

- Abstinence-only education
- Distributing birth control
- Union membership
- The need for good working-class jobs
- A person who wants to adopt unwanted children
- Married people who get divorced

None of this has anything at all to do with negligence. Pretty much everyone knows that fornication can result in a pregnancy.

What is it that you actually care about? Criminalizing sex for unmarried people? Or promoting marriage and reducing the number of single parent families?

Everything I have suggested are ways to: (1) promote marriage, and (2) reduce the number of single parent families. If you don't care about those things then fine. I happen to think that encouraging marriage and seeking to reduce the number of out of wedlock births and single parent families is the actual objective here. Because as you say, it is really about the children. But if all you want to do is punish sex then fine. Good luck with that. I don't think you'll get many takers. And the Supreme Court has found that approach to be unconstitutional anyway.

[Josh]

Rather, the question is "should negligent parents be punished by the LAW". Which can only be answered if one defines what specific acts of "negligence" will be criminalized

I did:

One of the worst acts of negligence any parent can do is decide to have a child out of wedlock

That is the specific act I brought up.

, and what specific penalties are being contemplated.

No, there is no need to talk about sentencing. We can simply discuss the question, "Should X be punished by the law?" without discussing the variety of sentencing options at hand.

Assuming of course that the objective of the whole exercise is to change behavior and not just gratuitously punish people we disapprove of.

That is a topic (sentencing) that has zip all to do with whether or not something is wrong and should be a crime, and in any case, it's not on topic in this thread.

Ken, I'd like it if you could make a good-faith effort to stay on topic instead of throwing sand to try to muddy the waters by bringing up irrelevant topics, or else widening the scope. In this discussion, you managed to widen the scope to... talking about the need for union working class jobs. Sorry, but that simply is irrelevant to whether or not it's wrong to have a child out of wedlock.