Poll: Putin and Ukraine

[Josh]

Ken, I'll repeat myself:

I don't think language policy is a good justification for starting a war.

I really do wonder why you've made it your personal mission to justify anything that the Ukrainian government has ever done as good whilst simultaneously anything the Russian government has ever done is bad. Don't you think the world is a tad more nuanced than that?

[Ken]

Ken, I'll repeat myself:

I don't think language policy is a good justification for starting a war.

I really do wonder why you've made it your personal mission to justify anything that the Ukrainian government has ever done as good whilst simultaneously anything the Russian government has ever done is bad. Don't you think the world is a tad more nuanced than that?

Yes we live in a nuanced world. When has it ever been otherwise?

But launching a genocidal war of aggression and conquest is unambiguously evil. I’m not sure why you are so eager to find excuses for the actions of Russia. They chose their path. Ukraine did not.

And this sort of exaggerated straw man argument just makes you look silly: When you write things like “I really do wonder why you've made it your personal mission to justify anything that the Ukrainian government has ever done as good whilst simultaneously anything the Russian government has ever done is bad.” It is hard for anyone to take you seriously. I’m confident you can do better than that.

[Josh]

Let's repeat myself:

I don't think language policy is a good justification for starting a war.

Even though the treatment of Russian speakers in Ukraine was a bit ridiculous - this is something I have personally heard from both Ukrainians and Russian-speaking Ukrainians myself (back before the invasion). I just chalked it up back then to the type of ethnic and linguistic chauvinism that is quite common in Eastern Europe.

[temporal1]

For perspective, closer to the U.S., the Province of French-English Quebec:

2013 / BBC / Rebelling against Quebec's 'language police'
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22408248

i was just out of high school when visiting Montreal, about 1970. i was shocked when we walked into a language war zone.
i had no idea there was such a thing. serious stuff. decades later, evidently, it’s not over in Quebec.

The U.S. has never had an “official” language ..

.. Still, no uniform language policy prevailed during the 19th century. Bilingual education was accepted in areas where ethnic groups had influence and rejected where anti-immigrant sentiment was strong.

By the mid-1800’s, public and parochial German-English schools were operating in such cities as Baltimore, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, and St. Louis. One survey of school records in the Midwest found that at least 231,700 children were taught in German in 1900.

In Ohio, an 1839 law authorized instruction in English, German, or both, writes Heinz Kloss in The American Bilingual Tradition. Louisiana adopted the same statute in 1847, substituting French for German. Two years after its annexation in 1848, the Territory of New Mexico authorized Spanish-English education. Colorado, Illinois, Iowa, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, and Oregon also passed laws sanctioning instruction in languages other than English. ..

People fight. Includng over language.

[Ken]

The U.S. has never had an “official” language ..

The US has no official language at the Federal level, but a majority of states have made English their official language at the state level.

And only 3 states recognize any other official languages other than English. Hawaii recognizes native Hawaiian as an official language, South Dakota recognizes Sioux as an official language. And Alaska recognizes a variety of native tongues as official languages. That is it.

[Ernie]

Well it isn't true.

What isn't true?

That Russia invaded because Ukraine was persecuting Russian speakers. They overwhelmingly elected one.

So you don't think what was written here is true?

www.reddit.com/r/AskARussian/comments/t ... t/i0sp0o7/

[Ken]

What isn't true?

That Russia invaded because Ukraine was persecuting Russian speakers. They overwhelmingly elected one.

So you don't think what was written here is true?

www.reddit.com/r/AskARussian/comments/t ... t/i0sp0o7/

The claim in the title of the reddit link is "not allowing Russians to speak Russian in Ukraine"

Yes, I am claiming that is not true. Russian speakers are allowed to speak Russian in Ukraine. Which is exhibited by the fact that they elected a Russian speaker to the presidency with the overwhelming support of the Russian-speaking eastern half of the country.

Has Ukraine passed various language related laws to support the Ukrainian language over the past 30 years? Yes, they have under both Ukrainian-speaking and pro-Russian and Russian-speaking presidents. The 2019 law that people cite was a last minute lame-duck "in your face" move by outgoing president Poroshenko to diss incoming Russian-speaking Zelensky. Are language laws common in the world? Yes, they are everywhere in Europe and the US. For example, Arizona prohibits bilingual education in schools. That is a language law. But no, Russian-speakers are not prohibited from speaking Russian in Ukraine.

And none of this is why Russia invaded. To the extent that language had anything to do with Russia's invasion it was because Russia wanted to suppress and extinguish Ukrainian language and culture, not because they cared about Russian-speakers in Ukraine. Which is something different and the opposite.

[Josh]

I'll believe what Ukrainians and Russian-speaking Ukrainians have told me face-to-face over what Ken's opinions posted here are.

[Ken]

I'll believe what Ukrainians and Russian-speaking Ukrainians have told me face-to-face over what Ken's opinions posted here are.

I have both Russian and Ukrainian-speaking refugee students in my classes right now. I'm sure they would be happy to set you straight when it comes to the actions of Russia.

[Josh]

I'll believe what Ukrainians and Russian-speaking Ukrainians have told me face-to-face over what Ken's opinions posted here are.

I have both Russian and Ukrainian-speaking refugee students in my classes right now. I'm sure they would be happy to set you straight when it comes to the actions of Russia.

These conversations happened from 2017 - 2019.

Presumably, the history of Russian and Ukrainian dialects in Ukraine didn't somehow magically change in 2020. (For what it's worth, a large part of Ukraine speaks a "pidgin" of Russian and Ukrainian which is like the two mixed together.)