Ken wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 8:29 pmThere is a lot of empty space in southern Israel. The Israelis could accept and resettle Gaza refugees in Israel temporarily. It is their war after all, not Egypt's.
But they won't. So what can be done for Gazans now? I think the US could drop supplies quite easily, regardless of what message it sends to the world. Using people as pawns is never the way of Jesus.
I get your point earlier that Hamas would love to shoot down a plane. But they could negotiate air aid, just like they negotiate hostages.
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 8:29 pmThere is a lot of empty space in southern Israel. The Israelis could accept and resettle Gaza refugees in Israel temporarily. It is their war after all, not Egypt's.
But they won't. So what can be done for Gazans now? I think the US could drop supplies quite easily, regardless of what message it sends to the world. Using people as pawns is never the way of Jesus.
I get your point earlier that Hamas would love to shoot down a plane. But they could negotiate air aid, just like they negotiate hostages.
My point wasn't about the message it would send to the rest of the world. My point was that it would perpetuate the war by making it easier for Israel to keep the border blockade in place.
By the way. Someone else made the point about Hamas shooting down planes which I frankly doubt. I don't think they have anti-aircraft weaponry or shoulder fired surface to air missiles. The Israeli Air Force operates there with impunity.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Let me give you an analogy Ernie, to illustrate my point because I feel fairly strongly about this.
Say you are part of the leadership of a church community and it comes to your attention that one of your junior members is viciously abusing his children. Maybe a member that is financially dependent on your church because he does maintenance and groundskeeping for the church or some such and receives church housing.
What is the right response in this situation? There are a variety of possible right responses. But I can tell you want is the WRONG response. The WRONG response would be to send someone by to the house once a week with a single band aid for the children because "that is better than doing nothing".
Why would that be the wrong response?
First, because you are falsely defining your range of choices as: (1) doing nothing or (2) bringing your once-weekly band aid. Those are not, in fact, your actual range of options or responses. And if you lock yourself into a decision framework where you are trying to decide between doing nothing and bringing a band aid then you have already made an enormous mistake. In fact you have a LOT of other possible responses, especially given that you are in a position of authority and the man is financially dependent on you and committing his abuse in a home that you are subsidizing. In fact you actually have an obligation to do more.
Second, by choosing such an ineffective and useless response you have made more effective responses on your part less likely. That is the nature of decision-making, whether at the level of a church or the level of national foreign policy. Bad decisions become institutionalized and become an excuse for NOT doing something different and better.
Third, by getting involved, you have become involved and now are at some level culpable for what is happening in that home. You know that there is violent abuse happening and you have chosen the band aid solution so you are now a participant in the cycle of abuse.
Fourth, by making this decision you are actually aiding and abetting the abuse and making it easier for the abuser to continue on the path he has chosen. There is implied approval because you haven't taken any more forceful action. You are actually making it more possible and more likely that the abuse will continue. Because there isn't any one else out there in a position to do anything. Just you. And the official response by you is the band aid.
If the US were to start some trivial and ineffective air-dropping of supplies into Gaza it would be making all of the same mistakes as the church leadership above. Except with far larger consequences. First it would be implying that the policy choice facing the US is between an ineffectual air drop versus doing nothing. When that is not remotely the range of policy options facing the US. It would provide tacit approval for what Israel is doing. It would relieve US decision-makers of the pressure to take further actions as they would tend to double-down and defend the air-drop policy. And it would make Israel's blockade more likely to continue since you are providing them with the band aid.
Sometimes a band aid is actually WORSE than doing nothing at all.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
I get your point, Ken.
But the US has been saying for months that the maiming and killing of innocent citizens in Gaza needs to stop.
But nothing changes in Israel.
So assuming aid could be dropped without Hamas shooting down a plane, why couldn't the US continue to drop aid, while at the same time continue to insist on that Israel give more attention to civilians.
I don't see it as an either/or but rather as a both/and.
As for my original question, you and others answered that question sufficiently.
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:00 pmUsing people as pawns is never the way of Jesus.
Here is your answer. The U.S. government doesn’t follow the way of Jesus.
I wish I could contribute aid to help Gazans but it is too risky for several reasons:
- any aid could end up misconstrued as sponsoring terrorism and I don’t want my name associated with that
- worse, it could end up misconstrued as anti-Semitism and get my name on social media, cost me my job, or disgrace my business if I had my business name a donation.
Many people who have tried to help have had careers and lives destroyed.
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 8:23 am
I get your point, Ken.
But the US has been saying for months that the maiming and killing of innocent citizens in Gaza needs to stop.
But nothing changes in Israel.
So assuming aid could be dropped without Hamas shooting down a plane, why couldn't the US continue to drop aid, while at the same time continue to insist on that Israel give more attention to civilians.
I don't see it as an either/or but rather as a both/and.
As for my original question, you and others answered that question sufficiently.
My point is that decision-making doesn't work that way. It is never a set of discrete and independent actions/decisions that do not affect each other. It isn't simply an either/or or both question. Each action you take affects the likelihood of doing something else. In this case, doing something trivial and ineffectual takes the pressure off decision-makers to do something meaningful.
And in something as complex as Gaza, all the various actors and decision-makers have complex rationales for their actions. They do not all share your motivations. In many cases there will be those who are actually seeking ineffectual actions as an alternative to doing something more substantial or meaningful. They might want to be seen as doing something rather than actually doing something meaningful and difficult.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
There's a huge group of Christian organizations putting on pilgrimage walks around the world for a ceasefire in Gaza. I'm curious if anyone else has heard of these, or is considering attending.
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The meaning of life is to find your gift.
The purpose of life is to give it away.
-w.s.
There's a huge group of Christian organizations putting on pilgrimage walks around the world for a ceasefire in Gaza. I'm curious if anyone else has heard of these, or is considering attending.
Whilst I support an end to all wars and hostilities around the globe, and in particularly would like to see the nearly two-decade-long siege of Gazans stop, I do not think as Christians who are to be "pilgrims and strangers" that we should be participating in political activism like this, particularly hand-in-hand with a list of denominations sponsoring these "pilgrimage walks" that have strayed very, very far from following the clear teachings of Jesus and the Bible.
There's a huge group of Christian organizations putting on pilgrimage walks around the world for a ceasefire in Gaza. I'm curious if anyone else has heard of these, or is considering attending.
Whilst I support an end to all wars and hostilities around the globe, and in particularly would like to see the nearly two-decade-long siege of Gazans stop, I do not think as Christians who are to be "pilgrims and strangers" that we should be participating in political activism like this, particularly hand-in-hand with a list of denominations sponsoring these "pilgrimage walks" that have strayed very, very far from following the clear teachings of Jesus and the Bible.
Where is the line between spiritual/emotional solidarity, as spoken about on the website I linked, and political activism? I see it more as a physical act of prayer. Surely the church universal can find common ground when praying for peace.
Nonetheless, if anyone is at the one in Scranton tomorrow, I'll see you there
0 x
The meaning of life is to find your gift.
The purpose of life is to give it away.
-w.s.
There's a huge group of Christian organizations putting on pilgrimage walks around the world for a ceasefire in Gaza. I'm curious if anyone else has heard of these, or is considering attending.
No one seems to want a permanent ceasefire in Gaza.
Not the Israelis
Not the Gazans
So I doubt anything will come of it.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
