Query: Is Romans 1 a Prophesy?

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MaxPC
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Query: Is Romans 1 a Prophesy?

Post by MaxPC »

One of our priests gave a sermon that discusses Romans 1 as a prophetic interpretation for the reality of our era. What is your interpretation?
Romans 1 English Standard Version (ESV)

Greeting
1 Paul, a servant[a] of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ,

7 To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Longing to Go to Rome
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you 10 always in my prayers, asking that somehow by God's will I may now at last succeed in coming to you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— 12 that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine. 13 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers,[c] that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles. 14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians,[d] both to the wise and to the foolish. 15 So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith,[e] as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”[f]

God's Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Footnotes:

Romans 1:1 For the contextual rendering of the Greek word doulos, see Preface
Romans 1:3 Or who came from the offspring of David
Romans 1:13 Or brothers and sisters. In New Testament usage, depending on the context, the plural Greek word adelphoi (translated “brothers”) may refer either to brothers or to brothers and sisters
Romans 1:14 That is, non-Greeks
Romans 1:17 Or beginning and ending in faith
Romans 1:17 Or The one who by faith is righteous shall live
Romans 1:20 Or clearly perceived from the creation of the world
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
MaxPC
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Re: Query: Is Romans 1 a Prophesy?

Post by MaxPC »

Addendum: I thought it went well with haithabu's thread here.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
MaxPC
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Re: Query: Is Romans 1 a Prophesy?

Post by MaxPC »

What do you think? Prophesy or not?
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
KingdomBuilder
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Re: Query: Is Romans 1 a Prophesy?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

MaxPC wrote:What do you think? Prophesy or not?
Not really.
What do you mean by the "reality of our era"? Everything in this passage is and has been a reality of all eras.
Do you agree?
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Re: Query: Is Romans 1 a Prophesy?

Post by Bootstrap »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Everything in this passage is and has been a reality of all eras.
Do you agree?
I agree. Paul is not speaking in the future tense. Of course, a lot of what was going on then is still going on today.
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MaxPC
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Re: Query: Is Romans 1 a Prophesy?

Post by MaxPC »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
MaxPC wrote:What do you think? Prophesy or not?
Not really.
What do you mean by the "reality of our era"? Everything in this passage is and has been a reality of all eras.
Do you agree?
Indeed. I think what he was trying to do was to point out some of the harsher aspects of the current culture but also to say that it was part of the ongoing reality of human sin and a battle for all Christians even in our era.

Or something to that effect.
YMMV :lol:
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
haithabu
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Re: Query: Is Romans 1 a Prophesy?

Post by haithabu »

In Romans 1, Paul describes a permanent dynamic in human affairs which is amply illustrated throughout the Old Testament. It involves two basic ideas:

1) The rejection of God leads to the loss of intellectual and moral balance. You can't reject God and retain the Tao.

2) This degradation is collective as well as individual. Paul references its social effects on worship and cultural sexual practices as it works through mutual approval and support.

So it is not a prophecy per se. However in 2 Timothy Paul takes what he was saying in Romans 1 and applies it especially to the future:
But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.....
2 Timothy 3:1-4
Compare this with his concluding indictment in Romans 1. The two are closely parallel to one another:
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful....
Romans 1:29-31


So while the process of collective spiritual, intellectual and moral decline is endemic to the human condition (Romans 1), in the last days it will intensify and enter an acute phase (2 Timothy 3). Jesus referred to this as a future challenge to all believers in Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation expands on it.
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Re: Query: Is Romans 1 a Prophesy?

Post by MaxPC »

haithabu wrote:
So while the process of collective spiritual, intellectual and moral decline is endemic to the human condition (Romans 1), in the last days it will intensify and enter an acute phase (2 Timothy 3). Jesus referred to this as a future challenge to all believers in Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation expands on it.
Indeed, he mentioned that too and it's that direction/future challenge that he referred to as a prophesy. Thank you, that helps.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
haithabu
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Re: Query: Is Romans 1 a Prophesy?

Post by haithabu »

The question I sense behind your question is whether what we see in society around us is part of that end times intensification?

I don't know, but the social/moral degradation in the West has been so rapid and unexpected in the past five years that it does start to look like those "difficult times". We are currently watching the abolition of normal in Western society.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Query: Is Romans 1 a Prophesy?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

haithabu wrote:We are currently watching the abolition of normal in Western society.
Perhaps, but even then, we are not, nor should we think of ourselves as, the apex society. Many seem to think that our society's collapse would be synonymous with the End. Fact is, plenty of societies are actually improving.
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