The Sirach

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Neto
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Re: The Sirach

Post by Neto »

Bootstrap wrote:
Neto wrote:Menno Simons quotes from it in at least one of his booklets.
In more than one.
I was thinking of Sirach 9:9 (although I couldn't recall the reference - I thought it was in chapter 3), where (in the Dutch to English translation) he quotes it as "Do not sit down with another man's wife" (as I recall). I think that some of the older translations Sirach added 'to meat', to clarify that a meal was what was meant. (As in: "Do not sit down to meat with another man's wife.")
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Bootstrap
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Re: The Sirach

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MaxPC wrote:
temporal1 wrote:then, i've read, as the OT "foretells" the NT, so does the Sirach/Septuagint.
if so, that's helpful. i was not thinking of a time line. but, yes, that's important.
This was one of our three Scripture readings on Sunday. Sirach is a wonderful study in wisdom and I find it fruitful to cross reference it with Proverbs.
It's a lot like Proverbs, isn't it.
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Bootstrap
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Re: The Sirach

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Neto wrote:I was thinking of Sirach 9:9 (although I couldn't recall the reference - I thought it was in chapter 3), where (in the Dutch to English translation) he quotes it as "Do not sit down with another man's wife" (as I recall). I think that some of the older translations Sirach added 'to meat', to clarify that a meal was what was meant. (As in: "Do not sit down to meat with another man's wife.")
Perhaps this quote?
Menno Simons wrote:As we find many wicked men who shamefully seduce poor, simple hearts; so on the other hand we find impudent women and girls, who are often the first cause that such disgrace is sought and sometimes practiced upon them. Although many are not guilty of the deed, nevertheless they are not guiltless, that they make so free with other men and associates in open triflings, singing, dancing, drinking, kissing, courting, flirting, and the like vanity and abominations, whereby they kindle the fire of base passions, which continue till consumed, as may be seen.

O how properly Sirach admonishes us, when he says, "Meet not with an harlot, lest thou fall into her snares; use not much the company of a woman that is a singer, lest thou be taken with her attempts; gaze not on a maid, that thou fall not by those things that are precious in her; give not thy soul unto harlots, that thou lose not thine inheritance; look not round about thee in the streets of the city, neither wander thou in the solitary places thereof; turn away thine eye from a beautiful woman, and look not upon another's beauty; for many have been deceived by the beauty of a woman; for herewith love is kindled as a fire. Sit not at all with another man's wife, nor sit down with her in thine arms, and spend not thy money with her at the wine; lest thine heart incline unto her, and so through thy desire, thou fall into destruction," Sir. 9:3-9.

Were it now so, that the aforementioned married and unmarried women were true believers, even as was the sinful woman, they would then also fear the Lord, they would abandon all vanity and ungodly actions, and lay snares for none, nor give any occasion for evil; yea, would walk honorably and modestly; avoid all manner of pride and superfluity, and make, or desire no other clothes than those necessary and comfortable for their daily labor. They would not frequent the idolatrous temple and idle banquets, for which occasions this pompous show is generally gotten up.

The sinful woman adorned her soul and not her outward appearance, for she believed; but these adorn their bodies, and not their souls, for they believe not.

The sinful woman sighed and wept, was afraid of the wrath and judgment of the Lord, for she saw that she had done wrong, and sinned; but these laugh and sing, dance and prance about, and do not see their enormous misdeeds, and great sins, and therefore, they do not fear the wrath and judgment of the Lord.
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Neto
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Re: The Sirach

Post by Neto »

Bootstrap wrote:
Neto wrote:I was thinking of Sirach 9:9 (although I couldn't recall the reference - I thought it was in chapter 3), where (in the Dutch to English translation) he quotes it as "Do not sit down with another man's wife" (as I recall). I think that some of the older translations Sirach added 'to meat', to clarify that a meal was what was meant. (As in: "Do not sit down to meat with another man's wife.")
Perhaps this quote?
Menno Simons wrote:As we find many wicked men who shamefully seduce poor, simple hearts; so on the other hand we find impudent women and girls, who are often the first cause that such disgrace is sought and sometimes practiced upon them. Although many are not guilty of the deed, nevertheless they are not guiltless, that they make so free with other men and associates in open triflings, singing, dancing, drinking, kissing, courting, flirting, and the like vanity and abominations, whereby they kindle the fire of base passions, which continue till consumed, as may be seen.

O how properly Sirach admonishes us, when he says, "Meet not with an harlot, lest thou fall into her snares; use not much the company of a woman that is a singer, lest thou be taken with her attempts; gaze not on a maid, that thou fall not by those things that are precious in her; give not thy soul unto harlots, that thou lose not thine inheritance; look not round about thee in the streets of the city, neither wander thou in the solitary places thereof; turn away thine eye from a beautiful woman, and look not upon another's beauty; for many have been deceived by the beauty of a woman; for herewith love is kindled as a fire. Sit not at all with another man's wife, nor sit down with her in thine arms, and spend not thy money with her at the wine; lest thine heart incline unto her, and so through thy desire, thou fall into destruction," Sir. 9:3-9.

Were it now so, that the aforementioned married and unmarried women were true believers, even as was the sinful woman, they would then also fear the Lord, they would abandon all vanity and ungodly actions, and lay snares for none, nor give any occasion for evil; yea, would walk honorably and modestly; avoid all manner of pride and superfluity, and make, or desire no other clothes than those necessary and comfortable for their daily labor. They would not frequent the idolatrous temple and idle banquets, for which occasions this pompous show is generally gotten up.

The sinful woman adorned her soul and not her outward appearance, for she believed; but these adorn their bodies, and not their souls, for they believe not.

The sinful woman sighed and wept, was afraid of the wrath and judgment of the Lord, for she saw that she had done wrong, and sinned; but these laugh and sing, dance and prance about, and do not see their enormous misdeeds, and great sins, and therefore, they do not fear the wrath and judgment of the Lord.
I believe so, but I have the Dutch-English version, and that looks like the Funk translation, right? (Dutch to German to English) It reads significantly different in many places.

Edit: No, I found that place (p 381 of my version, in True Christian Faith part I.) I'm looking for the passage I was thinking of.

Edit 2: I must have either remembered my own rendering, or that of another translation of Sirach. (As a Bible translator, it is a 'problem' I developed - remembering more the meaning than the actual wording.)
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Bootstrap
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Re: The Sirach

Post by Bootstrap »

Neto wrote:I believe so, but I have the Dutch-English version, and that looks like the Funk translation, right? (Dutch to German to English) It reads significantly different in many places.
Yes, it is the Funk translation.

Where can I get the Dutch-English version? (Is it the original Flemish text?)
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Re: The Sirach

Post by MaxPC »

Neto wrote: Edit 2: I must have either remembered my own rendering, or that of another translation of Sirach. (As a Bible translator, it is a 'problem' I developed - remembering more the meaning than the actual wording.)
BTDT myself. Many times. :lol:
I still feel your insights into these translations are quite helpful and instructive.
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Neto
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Re: The Sirach

Post by Neto »

Bootstrap wrote:
Neto wrote:I believe so, but I have the Dutch-English version, and that looks like the Funk translation, right? (Dutch to German to English) It reads significantly different in many places.
Yes, it is the Funk translation.

Where can I get the Dutch-English version? (Is it the original Flemish text?)
It isn't a diglot, I just meant that it was translated directly from Dutch into English, rather than coming through another intermediate "state", or language. I just think it is easier to read than the Funk version. (I also have "Handbook" by Dietrich Philip, and it is a Dutch to German to English translation by Funk, & I have still not read it through. It is simply just difficult to read.) I have not found this version anywhere on the internet. It is printed by Herald Press, and is sometimes referred to as the Wenger Edition. (John C. Wenger was the editor. It was translated from the Dutch by Leonard Verduin, who was actually a Calvinist. So see, we do owe them something afterall.) It was copyrighted in 1956 by the Mennonite Publishing House. My edition is from 1974, the third printing. That's about when I bought it, because I got it while a Freshman at Grace Bible Institute, 1974-1975.
(I have scanned some portions, but it is tedious work, especially correcting the OCR scans. I have been watching in the Mennonite 2nd hand stores here for a ragged copy I could cut apart w/o feeling bad, but so far no go. If there were a group of people working on it, that would make it much more manageable. I do realize that it is probably still under copyright - I just wanted it for personally use, to be able to do word searches in a word processing program.)
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Re: The Sirach

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2023 The Sirach

Just wanted to add a note here about apocryphal books discussed in another topic:

Page 5 / Sola Scriptura
viewtopic.php?t=5368&start=40
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Neto
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Re: The Sirach

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I could also add that, in regards to the "Wenger Edition" of The Complete Writings of Menno Simons, I DID eventually find a ragged copy, which I purchased for the amazing price of 25 cents. (It was that ragged.) (I mentioned this intention in the last post I made in this thread, just above Temp's.
I was quite surprised, and pleased, to find such an additional copy here in Ohio, because Mennonites here do not tend to be very fond of him, or of his writings.)

My oldest son and I completely dismantled it, and he scanned the entire book. I do not, however, feel free to "distribute" the PDF version to anyone who does not own a printed copy, because I'm pretty sure it is still under copyright.
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Re: The Sirach

Post by Josh »

Neto wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 pm I could also add that, in regards to the "Wenger Edition" of The Complete Writings of Menno Simons, I DID eventually find a ragged copy, which I purchased for the amazing price of 25 cents. (It was that ragged.) (I mentioned this intention in the last post I made in this thread, just above Temp's.
I was quite surprised, and pleased, to find such an additional copy here in Ohio, because Mennonites here do not tend to be very fond of him, or of his writings.)

My oldest son and I completely dismantled it, and he scanned the entire book. I do not, however, feel free to "distribute" the PDF version to anyone who does not own a printed copy, because I'm pretty sure it is still under copyright.
What year is it?
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