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Re: Romans 14
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:00 pm
by silentreader
Valerie wrote:silentreader wrote:Valerie wrote:
Apostle Paul uses the word 'freedom' instead of 'rights'- in other words, I have the freedom to do things that I do not have a scruple or a conviction against- UNLESS it grieves my brother/sister, to witness this, or unless it causes them to stumble.
What I find difficult is when we talk too much about these things to the point we begin trying to convince each other- I don't think Apostle Paul was recommending doing this- (I recently went through this regarding facebook, going back & forth with someone who is convinced it is useful by God- and I on the other hand tend to be concerned about the overuse of facebook in the lives of Christians- we got to the point we were trying to convince each other against what it seemed, as our own personal conviction- I started to feel uncomfortable that we aren't walking in love with this approach of trying to convince the other) Sometimes I feel like when we have the 'freedom' Apostle Paul is talking about, we are trying to justify ourselves to the one who doesn't have the same freedom because it may seem in their eyes, we are not as holy or pious and so we try to justify our freedoms to them- (as I'm writing this many conversations between brothers & sisters pop in my mind, we are definitely living in more difficult times to sift through so much of this stuff!
Probably the immediate context of what Paul was dealing with was the cultural diversity of converts entering the church.
Wonder then, what he would say 'today'? with the cultural diversity of converts entering the church.
My opinion, for whatever it's worth, is that when we read the Epistles we need to remember that they were first written for a specific audience. This is not say that they are not relevant for us, but rather a reminder that some of things said may not have been an explicit answer for our current circumstances. But they do contain timeless truths and principles which we can often apply to our lives. A case in point is the 1 Cor. 11 passage. Here he directly addresses whatever the problem was in the Corinthian church, but in doing so he references the creation order as an underlying principle.
What would Paul say to-day? I don't know, but I doubt he would be speechless for long.
Re: Romans 14
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:42 pm
by Bootstrap
Hats Off wrote:We see Romans 14 quoted quite regularly on this forum. I read yesterday - but didn't take note of where it was - that Romans 14 is currently replacing John 3:16 as the most quoted scripture. I find this interesting. Apparently we do want scripture that allows us to enjoy our own opinion and frees us from what others may think.
The opposite danger, of course, is to ignore Romans 14. We need all of Scripture, ignoring none of it.
silentreader wrote:My opinion, for whatever it's worth, is that when we read the Epistles we need to remember that they were first written for a specific audience. This is not say that they are not relevant for us, but rather a reminder that some of things said may not have been an explicit answer for our current circumstances. But they do contain timeless truths and principles which we can often apply to our lives. A case in point is the 1 Cor. 11 passage. Here he directly addresses whatever the problem was in the Corinthian church, but in doing so he references the creation order as an underlying principle.
What would Paul say to-day? I don't know, but I doubt he would be speechless for long.
Well said. I agree entirely.
To me, simple obedience includes acknowledging that we aren't 100% certain about some passages. We should each obey according to our best understanding. Preferably without condemning other Christians for understanding a passage differently.
Re: Romans 14
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:49 pm
by Sudsy
Bootstrap wrote:Hats Off wrote:We see Romans 14 quoted quite regularly on this forum. I read yesterday - but didn't take note of where it was - that Romans 14 is currently replacing John 3:16 as the most quoted scripture. I find this interesting. Apparently we do want scripture that allows us to enjoy our own opinion and frees us from what others may think.
The opposite danger, of course, is to ignore Romans 14. We need all of Scripture, ignoring none of it.
silentreader wrote:My opinion, for whatever it's worth, is that when we read the Epistles we need to remember that they were first written for a specific audience. This is not say that they are not relevant for us, but rather a reminder that some of things said may not have been an explicit answer for our current circumstances. But they do contain timeless truths and principles which we can often apply to our lives. A case in point is the 1 Cor. 11 passage. Here he directly addresses whatever the problem was in the Corinthian church, but in doing so he references the creation order as an underlying principle.
What would Paul say to-day? I don't know, but I doubt he would be speechless for long.
Well said. I agree entirely.
To me, simple obedience includes acknowledging that we aren't 100% certain about some passages. We should each obey according to our best understanding. Preferably without condemning other Christians for understanding a passage differently.
I agree with you both but how is this accomplished if one believes there is danger in individual understandings of a text and instead we should rely and act upon the understanding of the community ? And obviously one community does not understand and act on a text the same as another. Why is it that there is this lack of tolerance of other's understandings within a community for the sake of being unified ? Doesn't Romans 14 suggest that we can be unified in love without all believing and acting the same ?
Re: Romans 14
Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:19 am
by silentreader
Sudsy wrote:Bootstrap wrote:Hats Off wrote:We see Romans 14 quoted quite regularly on this forum. I read yesterday - but didn't take note of where it was - that Romans 14 is currently replacing John 3:16 as the most quoted scripture. I find this interesting. Apparently we do want scripture that allows us to enjoy our own opinion and frees us from what others may think.
The opposite danger, of course, is to ignore Romans 14. We need all of Scripture, ignoring none of it.
silentreader wrote:My opinion, for whatever it's worth, is that when we read the Epistles we need to remember that they were first written for a specific audience. This is not say that they are not relevant for us, but rather a reminder that some of things said may not have been an explicit answer for our current circumstances. But they do contain timeless truths and principles which we can often apply to our lives. A case in point is the 1 Cor. 11 passage. Here he directly addresses whatever the problem was in the Corinthian church, but in doing so he references the creation order as an underlying principle.
What would Paul say to-day? I don't know, but I doubt he would be speechless for long.
Well said. I agree entirely.
To me, simple obedience includes acknowledging that we aren't 100% certain about some passages. We should each obey according to our best understanding. Preferably without condemning other Christians for understanding a passage differently.
I agree with you both but how is this accomplished if one believes there is danger in individual understandings of a text and instead we should rely and act upon the understanding of the community ? And obviously one community does not understand and act on a text the same as another. Why is it that there is this lack of tolerance of other's understandings within a community for the sake of being unified ? Doesn't Romans 14 suggest that we can be unified in love without all believing and acting the same ?
We forget that Christian unity and legislated uniformity are two different things.
Re: Romans 14
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:24 pm
by Joy
Yesterday I was listening to an inmate hashing out how to decide respect for his father and adopting all his beliefs, some of which are contrary to Scripture and common sense, as opposed to interpreting Scripture on his own through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I quoted a friend who said, after her husband divorced her for another woman, who in turn dumped him, "I don't think God expects a woman to believe everything her husband does just because she is his wife."
Or is it only those of us women who are not married, that are free to understand Scripture through study and wisdom given by God?
My (unsolicited
) opinion is that God will hold each of us accountable for individual obedience to His Word. Granted, that will still vary somewhat according to the authority we are under. But ultimately we are to obey God and what He has laid out for us in Scripture.
Re: Romans 14
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:44 pm
by Josh
I generally have a duty to obey the police (and if I don't, I'm subject to arrest or getting shot).
I still will do my best to live out my convictions regardless of what the police say. In reality, police have never caused me to be in conflict with obeying scripture. And if they did, I would rely on good Christian brothers & sisters & leaders to help me make that decision. If I were alone and had nobody, that's the point at which we have to rely on Jesus' grace to carry us thru, whether we sinned by disobeying authority or we sinned by obeying authority and we went against scripture.
Re: Romans 14
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:11 pm
by Hats Off
Sudsy wrote:Questions for further discussion -
1) Hats Off - How is Romans 14 a 'replacement' for John 3:16 ? I don't see the replacement idea here.
I am not talking about a connection or that one "replaces" the other. My point was to look at favourite or often quoted verses and see what the message of the verse has to say about us and our thinking. John 3:16 has been a favourite verse because of it's message that all who believe are "saved." Romans 14 seems to be replacing it as a favourite because it implies that no one else should be able to tell me what to do. By quoting Romans 14, I can silence my detractors.
Re: Romans 14
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:26 pm
by Bootstrap
Hats Off wrote:Romans 14 seems to be replacing it as a favourite because it implies that no one else should be able to tell me what to do. By quoting Romans 14, I can silence my detractors.
Hmmmm. If you are reading Romans 14 correctly, probably not.
Then again, those who specialize in detracting could probably benefit by paying attention to a great deal of Scripture ;-> We need to be scrupulous in looking at ourselves, but gracious in looking at others. The beam in my own eye is usually what I need to focus on ...
Re: Romans 14
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:54 pm
by Hats Off
This has nothing to do with my own understanding of Romans 14. I am simply saying that it appears to me that that aspect of Romans 14 is why it seems to be a favourite verse for many.
Re: Romans 14
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:49 am
by Bootstrap
Hats Off wrote:This has nothing to do with my own understanding of Romans 14. I am simply saying that it appears to me that that aspect of Romans 14 is why it seems to be a favourite verse for many.
When I look back at Mennonite history, I do wonder if some of our splits might have been better handled by allowing the kind of freedom we see in Romans 14. Of course, I'm one of those people who thinks Sunday School is a good thing ...