Help me understand John 5 and the Sabbath

[Bootstrap]

Looking at some of the Talmudic quotes, with help from ChatGPT. Don't trust these results entirely, but some of this is really hard to get good English translations for and hard to research. I am not sure I know what all of these mean.

• Tosefta Shabbat 17:14:
  Context: This passage in Tosefta Shabbat 17 discusses the preparations and actions that are permitted on the Sabbath.
  Text:
  כָּל צוֹרֵךְ שַׁבָּת, הוֹצֵא לוֹ מִרְאַשֵּׁי הַיּוֹם; בַּעַל אוּרָת צַר הוּא
  English Translation: "Any necessary thing for the Sabbath, one may prepare for it from the beginning of the day; it is the master of the trouble that he is."
• Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 12a:
  Context: This passage in Shabbat 12a discusses actions on Shabbat that produce sounds and the debate between Rabbi Yishmael and Rabbi Nathan regarding such actions.
  Text:
  תָּנוּ רַבִּי נָתָן וְרַבִּי יִצְחָק, רַבִּי יִצְחָק אוֹמֵר, אַף לַעֲשֹׂות דָּבָר שֶׁיִּשְׁמַע בּוֹ שָׁבָת וְיוֹם טוֹב, רַבִּי נָתָן אוֹמֵר, אַף לְהִשְׁמִיעַ מַצְּאֵנוּ בְּשַׁבָּת
  English Translation: "The school of Rabbi Yishmael taught: Rabbi Yishmael says: Even to perform an action on Shabbat or a festival day that produces a sound [is prohibited]. Rabbi Nathan says: Even to have our nails cut on Shabbat is prohibited."
• Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 124a:
  Context: This passage in Shabbat 124a discusses the use of Tefillin (phylacteries) and their placement in a bag or container.
  Text:
  מֵאֵימָתַי אוֹמְרִים שִׁמּוּשׁ תְּפִלִּין בִּשְׁכַיִּלָּה
  English Translation: "From when do they say the use of Tefillin in a bag?"
• Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a:
  Context: This passage in Shabbat 31a discusses activities that produce sounds on Shabbat or festival days and the debate between Rabbi Yishmael and Rabbi Nathan regarding such activities.
  Text:
  תָּנוּ רַבִּי נָתָן וְרַבִּי יִצְחָק, רַבִּי יִצְחָק אוֹמֵר, אַף לַעֲשֹׂות דָּבָר שֶׁיִּשְׁמַע בּוֹ שָׁבָת וְיוֹם טוֹב, רַבִּי נָתָן אוֹמֵר, אַף לְהִשְׁמִיעַ מַצְּאֵנוּ בְּשַׁבָּת
  English Translation: "The school of Rabbi Yishmael taught: Rabbi Yishmael says: Even to perform an action on Shabbat or a festival day that produces a sound [is prohibited]. Rabbi Nathan says: Even to have our nails cut on Shabbat is prohibited."
• Babylonian Talmud, Eruvin 67b:
  Context: This passage in Eruvin 67b discusses a dispute between Rabbi Nathan and another individual regarding a certain action and whether it is permissible on Shabbat.
  Text:
  וּבָעוּ לְשַׁמְּעוֹ דַּרְבֵּי נָתָן וּבָאוּ לִפְנֵי רַב חִסְדָּא, אָמַר לֵיהּ, לֹא תַּעֲשֶׂה, אֲמַר לוֹ, אִם לֹא תַעֲשֶׂה, כֵּיוָן דְּבֵי רַבִּי יִשְׁמָעֵאל הוּא דְּתַעֲשֵׂי, אֲמַר לוֹ, אִם תַּעֲשֶׂה, לֹא תֵּלֵךְ מִפָּנַי
  English Translation: "And they came to hear the ruling of Rabbi Nathan, and they came before Rav Ḥisda. He said to him: Do not perform this action. Rabbi Nathan said to him: If you do not perform this action, then all members of the school of Rabbi Yishmael, who is the one who acts in this manner, will not pass before you."

[silentreader]

I have been thinking about some things like this lately, not because of this passage but because of a discussion in another setting about the relationship of the moral law including the Ten Commandments to the Christian. Most of my thinking on this is preliminary and I am not prepared to defend it as a thesis.

Same here.

The first passage I considered was Jeremiah 31:31-34:

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

What law was He talking about? Probably not the sacrificial law? Was He talking only about the House of Israel and the House of Judah? Or was He looking ahead to other believers, including us?

I do think the New Testament involves the law in our hearts. We, together, are the temple of the Holy Spirit. All of us, not just a few prophets. Jesus is both the High Priest and the sacrifice.

And Galatians tells us the Law was given to us as a tutor until Jesus came.

Two other passages are in Mark. In His reply to the rich young man He references some of the Ten Commandments...

17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Which goes well beyond the actual commandments.

But a couple of chapters later in Mark 12:28-34 He says this...

8 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Seems to me that rather than focusing on the individual laws we now understand them to be expressions of the "higher view" of the law that Jesus spoke of as in the bolded portion of the quote above.

Clearly, seeking the Kingdom of God is closely related to the first and second commandments:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

I think that has to be a lens for understanding everything else.

So where does the the fourth commandment, concerning the Sabbath come in to this?
Notice the two slightly different versions, in Exodus 20 referencing Creation...

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

..and in Deuteronomy 5 referencing the Exodus...

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

... we can see there was meaningful emphasis for the immediate audience.

Can you say more about the differences you see here?

I think Deuteronomy 5 includes a more explicit emphasis on ensuring rest for not only family members and servants but also livestock. It underscores the humanitarian aspect of the Sabbath, highlighting that even animals should be allowed to rest.

Deuteronomy 5 also links care of the "sojourner who is within your gates" to the idea that "you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm." And I think this notion of having been a slave is also linked to the way we treat our servants and even our animals in Deuteronomy 5.

Exodus 20 provides the rationale for keeping the Sabbath day holy by referencing God's creation of the world in six days and His resting on the seventh. Deuteronomy 5 emphasizes the connection between Sabbath observance and God's deliverance from Egypt, suggesting that the Sabbath serves as a reminder of God's redemptive actions.

Is that what you are noticing? Is there more?

When we look at the Sabbath through the NT lens of what Jesus did and said on the Sabbath, possibly one of the telling quotes is this one in Mark 3:

Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there with a withered hand. 2 And they watched Jesus, to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man with the withered hand, “Come here.” 4 And he said to them,“Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. 5 And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.

It almost seems that if we consider the 4th commandment as also an expression of Christ's "higher view" of the law, it draws together the first three concerning our knowledge and loving affirmation of the holiness of God, with the last six and our affirmation and practice of love for "our neighbor", and makes it a central point in how we express our relationship to God and those around us.

Yes, that makes sense to me.

I am sorry, I was profoundly careless and didn't see it till now

I used the Exodus 20 passage for both quotes. Here is the proper one which ties the Sabbath commemoration to the Exodus, which differs from the Creation emphasis. From Deuteronomy 5....

12 “‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

Makes me think "redemption" or "rescue" may be part of the significance of (Sabbath) rest as presented to the Hebrew Christians.

[Swiss Bro]

Circumcision is a clear-cut case.

I like what you did there.

Regarding early Christians, remember that until 70 a.d. the Temple still stood and the bulk of Christians consisted of messianic Jews meeting in the temple and basically kept on living their Jewish religion, probably also offering, but believing that in Christ, the Messiah had come.

That was ok until non Jews joined the flock and Judaizers tried to force them to be circumsized, abide by food rules and respect the Sabbath and other holidays, causing division. The Counsil of the Apostles settled that (Acts 15) and in Hebrews 13, the author asks the Hebrews (i.e. messianic Jews):

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

This can be interpreted as a request to abandon Jewish religion altogether, including offerings, and, thus, leave „the camp“ of Judaism.

So for new Jewish converts to Christianism, there is no reason to circumsise their kids or hold the Sabbath.

[Bootstrap]

I am sorry, I was profoundly careless and didn't see it till now

I don't think you were "profoundly careless", I knew what you meant.

I used the Exodus 20 passage for both quotes. Here is the proper one which ties the Sabbath commemoration to the Exodus, which differs from the Creation emphasis. From Deuteronomy 5....

12 “‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

Makes me think "redemption" or "rescue" may be part of the significance of (Sabbath) rest as presented to the Hebrew Christians.

Yes, I agree. I said this earlier, but let me say it again now that we are in the same context:

I think Deuteronomy 5 includes a more explicit emphasis on ensuring rest for not only family members and servants but also livestock. It underscores the humanitarian aspect of the Sabbath, highlighting that even animals should be allowed to rest.

Deuteronomy 5 also links care of the "sojourner who is within your gates" to the idea that "you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm." And I think this notion of having been a slave is also linked to the way we treat our servants and even our animals in Deuteronomy 5.

Exodus 20 provides the rationale for keeping the Sabbath day holy by referencing God's creation of the world in six days and His resting on the seventh. Deuteronomy 5 emphasizes the connection between Sabbath observance and God's deliverance from Egypt, suggesting that the Sabbath serves as a reminder of God's redemptive actions.

[Bootstrap]

Regarding early Christians, remember that until 70 a.d. the Temple still stood and the bulk of Christians consisted of messianic Jews meeting in the temple and basically kept on living their Jewish religion, probably also offering, but believing that in Christ, the Messiah had come.

I agree.

That was ok until non Jews joined the flock and Judaizers tried to force them to be circumsized, abide by food rules and respect the Sabbath and other holidays, causing division. The Council of the Apostles settled that (Acts 15)

I agree.

... and in Hebrews 13, the author asks the Hebrews (i.e. messianic Jews):

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

This can be interpreted as a request to abandon Jewish religion altogether, including offerings, and, thus, leave „the camp“ of Judaism.

I'm not convinced of this. I'm not at all sure that Jews were asked to abandon their Jewish customs. But I keep learning new things and changing my mind on this question.

So for new Jewish converts to Christianism, there is no reason to circumsise their kids or hold the Sabbath.

I agree with that.

OTOH, Paul had Timothy circumcised to avoid offending Jews. His mother was Jewish. To Jews, that meant Timothy was Jewish. So it's quite possible that Paul's message to the church was this: the Jewish religion is for Jews. Messianic Judaism is fine. It should not be imposed on Gentiles. Galatians is mostly about how Gentiles should live.

Or not. I'm really not sure.

[Swiss Bro]

OTOH, Paul had Timothy circumcised to avoid offending Jews. His mother was Jewish. To Jews, that meant Timothy was Jewish. So it's quite possible that Paul's message to the church was this: the Jewish religion is for Jews. Messianic Judaism is fine. It should not be imposed on Gentiles. Galatians is mostly about how Gentiles should live.

Or not. I'm really not sure.

The circumcision of Timothy might have happened before the Judaizers became an issue, and before Paul wrote the letter to the Hebrews.

[Bootstrap]

OTOH, Paul had Timothy circumcised to avoid offending Jews. His mother was Jewish. To Jews, that meant Timothy was Jewish. So it's quite possible that Paul's message to the church was this: the Jewish religion is for Jews. Messianic Judaism is fine. It should not be imposed on Gentiles. Galatians is mostly about how Gentiles should live.

Or not. I'm really not sure.

The circumcision of Timothy might have happened before the Judaizers became an issue, and before Paul wrote the letter to the Hebrews.

Yes, that's possible.

As I said, I keep changing my mind on this.

[silentreader]

It would be interesting to know what the pre-Mosaic Sabbath looked like. The episode in Exodus 16 took place before the Sabbath law was formalized in the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 16:4-30
English Standard Version
4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I am about to rain bread from heaven for you, and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in my law or not. 5 On the sixth day, when they prepare what they bring in, it will be twice as much as they gather daily.” 6 So Moses and Aaron said to all the people of Israel, “At evening you shall know that it was the Lord who brought you out of the land of Egypt, 7 and in the morning you shall see the glory of the Lord, because he has heard your grumbling against the Lord. For what are we, that you grumble against us?” 8 And Moses said, “When the Lord gives you in the evening meat to eat and in the morning bread to the full, because the Lord has heard your grumbling that you grumble against him—what are we? Your grumbling is not against us but against the Lord.”

9 Then Moses said to Aaron, “Say to the whole congregation of the people of Israel, ‘Come near before the Lord, for he has heard your grumbling.’” 10 And as soon as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the people of Israel, they looked toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud. 11 And the Lord said to Moses, 12 “I have heard the grumbling of the people of Israel. Say to them, ‘At twilight you shall eat meat, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread. Then you shall know that I am the Lord your God.’”

13 In the evening quail came up and covered the camp, and in the morning dew lay around the camp. 14 And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a fine, flake-like thing, fine as frost on the ground. 15 When the people of Israel saw it, they said to one another, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, “It is the bread that the Lord has given you to eat. 16 This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Gather of it, each one of you, as much as he can eat. You shall each take an omer, according to the number of the persons that each of you has in his tent.’” 17 And the people of Israel did so. They gathered, some more, some less. 18 But when they measured it with an omer, whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack. Each of them gathered as much as he could eat. 19 And Moses said to them, “Let no one leave any of it over till the morning.” 20 But they did not listen to Moses. Some left part of it till the morning, and it bred worms and stank. And Moses was angry with them. 21 Morning by morning they gathered it, each as much as he could eat; but when the sun grew hot, it melted.

22 On the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers each. And when all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses, 23 he said to them, “This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay aside to be kept till the morning.’” 24 So they laid it aside till the morning, as Moses commanded them, and it did not stink, and there were no worms in it. 25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is a Sabbath, there will be none.”

27 On the seventh day some of the people went out to gather, but they found none. 28 And the Lord said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See! The Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Remain each of you in his place; let no one go out of his place on the seventh day.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.