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Re: To Be Plain or Not to Be Plain
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:03 am
by mike
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:01 am
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 10:41 pmOf a somewhat larger scope, he did not talk at all about some of the traditions the Old Orders would like to keep that the evangelical Mennonites tended to want to promote, such as one-part singing being replaced by four-part singing (although John D. Martin has confessed, I believe at AIC, that four-part singing is indeed a manifestation of a current towards conformity with the world in terms of music).
His song book,
Hymns of the Church, is an interesting/conflicting title in that it includes Hymns from Catholics, Protestants, and Reformers who persecuted our spiritual forbearers.
Yes. As does the Christian Hymnal by Josh's denomination. This is an interesting topic in its own right.
Re: To Be Plain or Not to Be Plain
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:05 am
by Soloist
mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 9:36 am
What sense does this book make to a follower of Jesus who knows nothing of the conservative Anabaptist tradition? Does it have any value to them at all?
If prior to learning what I knew now… I think I would have that it was a ridiculous book. Focused on the issue of self yet arguing for a form of self expression.
What is normal to them and how they were raised while looking at others as worldly. To me at the time I would have seen their inability to submit to anything that wasn’t their own historical practice and identified them hypocrites.
The insular nature of the group is good for maintaining a set of practice but is unable to see anything else as issues.
Sure there was things I needed to conform on but there are things they are blind to but as a group. Because of that, they are unable to heed warnings about any historical practice or things they believe are historical.
Re: To Be Plain or Not to Be Plain
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:09 pm
by Josh
mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:03 am
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:01 am
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 10:41 pmOf a somewhat larger scope, he did not talk at all about some of the traditions the Old Orders would like to keep that the evangelical Mennonites tended to want to promote, such as one-part singing being replaced by four-part singing (although John D. Martin has confessed, I believe at AIC, that four-part singing is indeed a manifestation of a current towards conformity with the world in terms of music).
His song book,
Hymns of the Church, is an interesting/conflicting title in that it includes Hymns from Catholics, Protestants, and Reformers who persecuted our spiritual forbearers.
Yes. As does the Christian Hymnal by Josh's denomination. This is an interesting topic in its own right.
John Overholt actually did try to have a “pure” hymnal, choosing to evict some beloved hymns because he didn’t like the origin of the hymn.
Which led to copies of Zion’s Praises, etc. ending up in the pew racks.
Re: To Be Plain or Not to Be Plain
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:55 pm
by mike
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:09 pm
mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:03 am
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:01 am
His song book,
Hymns of the Church, is an interesting/conflicting title in that it includes Hymns from Catholics, Protestants, and Reformers who persecuted our spiritual forbearers.
Yes. As does the Christian Hymnal by Josh's denomination. This is an interesting topic in its own right.
John Overholt actually did try to have a “pure” hymnal, choosing to evict some beloved hymns because he didn’t like the origin of the hymn.
Which led to copies of Zion’s Praises, etc. ending up in the pew racks.
What an awful “hymnal” that is. (It’s one of the ones in our racks.)
Re: To Be Plain or Not to Be Plain
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:35 pm
by Biblical Anabaptist
mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:55 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:09 pm
mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:03 am
Yes. As does the Christian Hymnal by Josh's denomination. This is an interesting topic in its own right.
John Overholt actually did try to have a “pure” hymnal, choosing to evict some beloved hymns because he didn’t like the origin of the hymn.
Which led to copies of Zion’s Praises, etc. ending up in the pew racks.
What an awful “hymnal” that is. (It’s one of the ones in our racks.)
Zion's Praises was never intended by the compilers to be a church hymnbook.
Re: To Be Plain or Not to Be Plain
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 9:50 am
by Heirbyadoption
Ernie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 7:28 pmTo Be or Not to Be Plain?: A serious call to Anabaptist cultural integrity. By John D. Martin | 2022
For many years, all Anabaptist groups embodied their Gospel beliefs and values in distinctive cultural norms to which all members were held accountable. We currently hear that such forms are imposed "man-made rules" that militate against a genuine personal experience with Christ. This booklet investigates the following questions:
Has God ever endorsed "man-made rules"?
Do distinctive cultural norms violate the Gospel?
Does a relaxing of distinctive cultural norms lead to greater evangelistic success?
If "the past is prologue," what can we learn from groups that relaxed their distinctive practices?
Answering these questions is important, because decisions have consequences, and wise believers base their decisions on the consequences they desire.
https://www.amazon.com/Be-Not-Plain-Ana ... 1680010360Read the booklet and then discuss. Only those who have read the booklet may post on this thread.
Ernie, I have ordered the book, should arrive today or tomorrow, but as such I will not comment here, other than to ask ahead of reading it: is this essentially the John D. version of Clifford Martin's "Maintaining Biblical Conservatism" book from 2007?
Re: To Be Plain or Not to Be Plain
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 9:55 am
by Josh
Heir,
Is that book worth picking up a copy of and reading?
One of my deep frustrations is that “Maintaining Moderate-Conservative Mennonitism” does not seem to actually be very scriptural, particularly as it relies on more-conservative “feeder churches” to keep such churches from running out of members.
Even if that is what scriptural Christian practice is, some sort of plan is needed other than “Locate near horse and buggy people and lure their members”, as that is simply not how I read the Great Commission.
Re: To Be Plain or Not to Be Plain
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:16 am
by mike
For what it's worth, this book is available for $.99 in Kindle version.
Re: To Be Plain or Not to Be Plain
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:17 am
by HondurasKeiser
mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:55 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:09 pm
mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:03 am
Yes. As does the Christian Hymnal by Josh's denomination. This is an interesting topic in its own right.
John Overholt actually did try to have a “pure” hymnal, choosing to evict some beloved hymns because he didn’t like the origin of the hymn.
Which led to copies of Zion’s Praises, etc. ending up in the pew racks.
What an awful “hymnal” that is. (It’s one of the ones in our racks.)
I’ve sung out of that hymnal just a handful of times. Why do you think it’s awful.
Re: To Be Plain or Not to Be Plain
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 1:12 pm
by ken_sylvania
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:17 am
mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:55 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:09 pm
John Overholt actually did try to have a “pure” hymnal, choosing to evict some beloved hymns because he didn’t like the origin of the hymn.
Which led to copies of Zion’s Praises, etc. ending up in the pew racks.
What an awful “hymnal” that is. (It’s one of the ones in our racks.)
I’ve sung out of that hymnal just a handful of times. Why do you think it’s awful.
It's not a hymnal, it's a song book. In order to qualify as a hymnal a book should have a good selection of hymns included.