The 7 Churches-

[Valerie]

Note in my Orthodox Study Bible: the Ephesian church had preserved an orthodox faith and moral uprightness but had left its first love presumably for God and each other. False apostles were a serious problem in the early church (see Corinthians 11:13-23), and Paul warned they would ravage the Church of Ephesus (Acts 20:29.)However in the early 2nd century, Saint Ignatius of Antioch praised the Ephesians for their continuing resistance to heresy. The lamp stand is probably the Ephesian Church's honor as a metropolitan Church of Asia."

"Most scholars believe the Nicolaitans to be an early gnostic set that tolerated idolatry and encouraged fornication. Some of the church fathers held the founder of the sect to be an apostate Nicholas, one of the original seven Deacons (Acts 6:5)."

[Bootstrap]

"Most scholars believe the Nicolaitans to be an early gnostic set that tolerated idolatry and encouraged fornication. Some of the church fathers held the founder of the sect to be an apostate Nicholas, one of the original seven Deacons (Acts 6:5)."

I'm not sure who "most scholars" refers to there. I think most scholars I know would say we have very little actual knowledge of the Nicolaitans except for:

1. Two verses in the Revelation
2. Later speculation that is based on those verses

The earliest speculation comes from Irenaeus Of Lyons (c.120-202). He seems to be assuming that the rest of these verses is actually a description of the Nicolaitans:

http://www.danielrjennings.org/AncientA ... l#Irenaeus

The Nicolaitanes are the followers of that Nicolas who was one of the seven first ordained to the diaconate by the apostles. They lead lives of unrestrained indulgence. The character of these men is very plainly pointed out in the Apocalypse of John, [when they are represented] as teaching that it is a matter of indifference to practice adultery, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. Wherefore the Word has also spoken of them thus: ‘But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.’” (Against Heresies, 1:26:3)

Irenaeus got his ideas from two parts in the book of Revelation. However, those parts don't directly say that the Nicolaitans did those things. We know some groups did, but we're not sure about the Nicolaitans. We do know that the Nicolaitans are doing something that God dislikes, but the book of Revelation doesn't give us a clear explanation of what that is.

To the Church in Ephesus

“To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:

These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

To the Church in Pergamum

“To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.

Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

[Bootstrap]

You can do all of those things and fall short, just as the Ephesians did. John is calling them to repent, and they will lose their place if they do not. Even if they keep appealing to these things as proof of their faithfulness.

They need to return to their first love. Love of God, love of neighbor - the first and second commandments. Love of the brethren is surely a big part of this. If our zeal does not look like love, we need to remember where we have fallen from.

I like the word "devoted", I think it summarizes much of what is at the heart of true Christianity. We are devoted to God, devoted to the brethren, devoted to loving and serving our neighbors, devoted to the ministry of reconciliation that God has given us. And if we fail to do that, God may remove our lampstand from its place.

Good points Boot. I think that returning to your first love seems the challenge. In other words, it seems like he was pointing out all the good things they were doing but it can become mechanical in a way? Someone like when you read 1st Corinthians 13 the love chapter. That can be very scary to me- without Love- we can become......

Yes, 1 Corinthians 13 is a very demanding chapter.

But discipleship is very demanding. In just exactly that way. Love of God and neighbor are the first and second commandments, they are the whole of the law and the prophets. If love is not the central, driving force, we have lost our sense of direction. We wind up straining out gnats and swallowing camels.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Justice, mercy, and faithfulness are rooted in love. If love is at the heart of what we do, so are the weightier matters of the law. If love is not at the heart of what we do, we are just play-acting.

[Sudsy]

[
We are taught by Scripture to do good works and that can include all kinds of things i believe, that maybe bring glory to God just because unbelievers watching will notice a difference. That may not result in their turning to Christ or not nonetheless it's still shines the light. Jesus was perfect in every way, in works, deeds, serving, miracles- it did cause many to glorify God and come to savingaith. Some became jealous. Some did not want to repent and wanted him removed from the presence of humanity.

I know some unbelievers that do good deeds more than other believers but the difference in their lives is they either are looking for recognition or they just like the good feelings from helping others.

One of our best friends, an unbeliever, enjoys doing good deeds and 'outshines' most believers in doing them. I don't believe if I did the same good deeds she does that mine would be shining the light where her's does not unless there is something more going on when I do them.

Yes, not all good deeds in themselves will turn people to Christ, nevertheless the text says that some will repent by shining our light by doing them. This leaves me to believe that those observing or are recipient of our good deeds recognize Jesus as being the source causing us to do them. Therefore, I believe what we have to share about Jesus in words and life style is part of making this connection. Jesus did good deeds but they also came with a message.

[Bootstrap]

I'm thinking about how to work some of this into a sermon.

Here's something I have been thinking about. It's easy to hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans and to be really very loud about it. And that can give me great certainty - I can demonstrate to you just how much I hate their deeds, and probably get your approval for doing that, it makes me look good and religious. That gives me a feeling of certainty and confidence. Revelation 2 tells me that I SHOULD hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, and that God does too. The church of Pergamom was giving in to that temptation, and that's not OK. But even when I hate the things I should hate, that's not enough.

Love is a lot harder. Love is really vulnerable, even when I am loving people close to me, and I'm often not at all sure that I am doing it right. I have to constantly seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit and talk it out with others. What is the right way to love my neighbor today? It may be different tomorrow. And I may not be at all sure I am doing it right. It may take time to find out.

[Sudsy]

One thing that jumps out at me in regarding the Nicolaitans is that we should hate the sin but love the sinner even though this was a Mahatma Ghandi phrase. It is always the sin that we are to hate. Sometimes in regarding certain people's sinning it is spoken of as hate towards the sinner (i.e. Donald Trump). If I remember that if it wasn't for the grace of God, there go I then I can keep the right attitude toward the sinner. And that is what I hope others will do regarding my sinning.

[ken_sylvania]

One thing that jumps out at me in regarding the Nicolaitans is that we should hate the sin but love the sinner even though this was a Mahatma Ghandi phrase. It is always the sin that we are to hate. Sometimes in regarding certain people's sinning it is spoken of as hate towards the sinner (i.e. Donald Trump). If I remember that if it wasn't for the grace of God, there go I then I can keep the right attitude toward the sinner. And that is what I hope others will do regarding my sinning.

Verse two seems to list a number of attributes of the Ephesian church that Christ approved of:

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars

It seems it is in order to not be able to bear unrepentant sinners in the church.

[Bootstrap]

Verse two seems to list a number of attributes of the Ephesian church that Christ approved of:

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars

It seems it is in order to not be able to bear unrepentant sinners in the church.

This particular verse is about false apostles. Other groups of particularly dangerous sinners are also mentioned in this passage.

One of these days, I will do a Bible study on what kinds of sin got you kicked out of the NT church and what kind got you pastoral help. I think I have a lot to learn on that subject. Sleeping with your father's wife is clearly enough to get you kicked out. Embracing the deeds of the Nicolaitans is too, whatever that means.

[RZehr]

The Ephesians could not bear Pat Robertson?

[Sudsy]

One thing that jumps out at me in regarding the Nicolaitans is that we should hate the sin but love the sinner even though this was a Mahatma Ghandi phrase. It is always the sin that we are to hate. Sometimes in regarding certain people's sinning it is spoken of as hate towards the sinner (i.e. Donald Trump). If I remember that if it wasn't for the grace of God, there go I then I can keep the right attitude toward the sinner. And that is what I hope others will do regarding my sinning.

Verse two seems to list a number of attributes of the Ephesian church that Christ approved of:

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars

It seems it is in order to not be able to bear unrepentant sinners in the church.

Even if they were excommunicated from the church, I don't believe any hateful attitude towards excommunicated people is proper and they should know that they are loved and will be accepted back should they repent. That, to me, is hating and acting on the sin while still loving the sinner and ready to receive the prodigal back with open arms.