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MaxPC wrote:

Peregrino wrote: There is also the Church as Abbey concept that provides some fascinating food for thought.

Fascinating

I especially liked these paragraphs from the description of the church as abbey.

Hospitality. The Celtic abbey was open to all who needed its hospitality and help. Monks, even those fasting, would interrupt their discipline to greet and welcome those who came into the abbey’s confines. Welcoming the stranger is a vital part of the abbey’s ministry.

Ministry to the marginalized. The poor, hungry, disenfranchised, sick, old, and disabled found help of various kinds within the abbey’s compound.

George Hunter, in his intriguing book, The Celtic Way of Evangelism, says that in the Celtic Christian abbey “belonging” came before “believing.” Prospective converts were incorporated into the community before they became believers in Christ. Not a bad model for us today, which is one of the main reasons I like the abbey approach. What do you think?

I think the above would go a long way toward keeping a communal order from turning inward and would even help the regular CA groups undo the damage that the twisting of the "doctrine of separation" has done to our collective psyche.

Peregrino, what I find interesting is that the author mentions the Rule of St. Benedict. That Rule as well as other monastic rules followed by monasteries and abbeys do include sections to help the community deal with disruptive outsiders who would interrupt the good order and good conversations that take place in monastic communities. In short, there are boundaries and safeguards too.

Peregrino wrote:I think the above would go a long way toward keeping a communal order from turning inward and would even help the regular CA groups undo the damage that the twisting of the "doctrine of separation" has done to our collective psyche.

I can't help but think of a few CA churches like York, PA or Baltimore that end up effectively being like this. They're really something special.

In the case of York, the centre of the community is the school, not the abbey, but the basic idea is the same.

I ordered a copy last week. The title is catchy, and seems to have many people thinking! The logic doesn't need to be perfect or just what the doctor ordered, to provoke thought and discussion. Christ-centered Friends have a long history of exercising something like what I imagine *The Benedict Option* to be but, let's admit it, Friends have a harder time functioning as a nonconformed community than many Anabaptists do. Part of the reason is much smaller numbers in modern times.

Bill Rushby wrote:I ordered a copy last week. The title is catchy, and seems to have many people thinking! The logic doesn't need to be perfect or just what the doctor ordered, to provoke thought and discussion. Christ-centered Friends have a long history of exercising something like what I imagine *The Benedict Option* to be but, let's admit it, Friends have a harder time functioning as a nonconformed community than many Anabaptists do. Part of the reason is much smaller numbers in modern times.

i wonder, if there had been no U.S. Civil War, would Quakers have held up better in history?
idle speculation! but, still, i wonder.
'cause, what i imagine happening was .. Quaker communities broke up, many leaving their communities to move north, away from slave states .. so, "for the right reasons." but, once they left, they lost their groups, married outside their communities, lost their numbers (?)
from the little i've found in my family, and reading of others, this seems to be what resulted.

Quakers were an important group to begin in U.S. history, they were important in the Civil War, then .. numbers declined (?)

however, i think, early sensibilities continue, even if not recognized for origin.
imho, we are all products of more than we consciously recognize.

temporal1 wrote:'cause, what i imagine happening was .. Quaker communities broke up, many leaving their communities to move north, away from slave states .. so, "for the right reasons." but, once they left, they lost their groups, married outside their communities, lost their numbers (?)
from the little i've found in my family, and reading of others, this seems to be what resulted.

That's not what happened at all. Quaker communities remained strong as they migrated north, in fact, stronger than they'd ever been. The one my mother's side of the family was from was very focused on running the "Underground Railroad" in southeast Ohio.

What weakened them was the influence of evangelical-Protestant thinking on the one hand, and excessive "spirituality" on the other. So my great-grandmother and great-great-grandparents, despite being devout, saw no reason at all to try to raise their children to be Christians, and my grandmother had no Christian upbringing at all.

Against this backdrop of a system very similar to Amish "rumspringa", with many young people having no understanding of Quakerism and living unholy lives, it's easy to see why evangelical-Protestant thinking and revivalism took hold amongst the Quakers as they transitioned to being Evangelical Friends. My great-grandmother's original meeting house is an Evangelical Friends church now. It stopped having a non-resistant/peace church stance before my lifetime and is indistinguishable from any other evangelical sort of church.

i'm not convinced that what you're describing conflicts with my questions.
although the Underground Railroad is openly spoken of today, it was not, at the time.
and, although your relatives were part of a large group that moved together, others did not, and, mostly, "lost their numbers," marrying outside their faith.

i will guess, because they came from a strong group, they anticipated becoming strong, as they moved to new locations. this did not always happen. my family records reflect that much.

Probably neither of these narratives is wholly accurate, but I thought this thread was about *The Benedict Option*!? I apologize if I got us onto a bunny trail!

Bill Rushby wrote:Probably neither of these narratives is wholly accurate, but I thought this thread was about *The Benedict Option*!? I apologize if I got us onto a bunny trail!

o.no. now i'm getting confused! lol
i need a break.

i was hoping for your thoughts on my Quaker questions.

Bill Rushby wrote:Probably neither of these narratives is wholly accurate, but I thought this thread was about *The Benedict Option*!? I apologize if I got us onto a bunny trail!

Bill, I would really enjoy more threads about Quakers, especially that could help me understand my own family's heritage a bit better. Most of what I know is based upon years and years of research my mother did or based upon what various professors told me when I was working as a contractor for or attending an evangelical Friends school.