Sexual Immorality in 1 Corinthians 5

[Josh]

Boot,

I’ve appreciated this discussion so far, particularly the distinction between “those within” and “those without”. How do you discern at what point someone is “without”? In my church, we discern it as people who are baptised and also attend communion. We do include all people in our congregations, not just the local one.

[Bootstrap]

The role expectations on the part of the OP are important as to the decision to participate in this thread or no.

Max, I think the OP was quite clear:

This is a Bible study thread, open to people who believe in simple obedience to Scripture. I would like to request that people in this thread follow these rules:

1. We will focus on this passage. We will use other threads for other passages.
2. We will start by asking and answering simple answers about what the passage says - objective things that we expect we can probably agree on.
3. We will talk about the text, not about other people.
4. We will focus on how we apply the text ourselves, not on how other people should. But we will start by understanding what the text meant when Paul wrote it before we go on to application.

So far, I don't think you have said anything at all about the passage we were studying, and I don't think you have referred to any part of the passage in your application. You haven't asked or answered any questions about what the passage says. You seem to want to make it about other people. You also seem to want to grade other people on their application of the text.

Those are the role expectations in this thread. If you want to participate in this thread, I would request that you follow the guidelines.

[MaxPC]

Well now, Boots, if you only want replies to you and not to each other in this thread that is another matter altogether.
Are you wanting to be a teacher and the participants the students?
or
Are you wanting insights into this Scripture to improve your own walk? Be forewarned, insights into any Scripture will entail the inclusion of other Scripture as the Bible is a woven whole, a contextual work. Isolating verses or chapters leads to error in understanding.

The role expectations on the part of the OP are important as to the decision to participate in this thread or no. I prefer to converse with each other as well as the OP as an adult. If this does not suit your agenda, I shall most certainly leave you to it.

Addendum

This is an issue in many churches, including MC-USA and many Catholic parishes, where gay sex and gay marriage is being actively promoted, things that I believe are in direct contradiction to the Bible.

In the interest of correct information, IF a Catholic parish or pastor is actively promoting homosexuality, they are placed in interdict, and are in disobedience to the Magisterium. They cannot be considered as Catholic in communion with the worldwide Catholic Church and its 7 Rites.
Carry on.

[MaxPC]

The role expectations on the part of the OP are important as to the decision to participate in this thread or no.

So far, I don't think you have said anything at all about the passage we were studying, and I don't think you have referred to any part of the passage in your application. You haven't asked or answered any questions about what the passage says. You seem to want to make it about other people. You also seem to want to grade other people on their application of the text.

Then Boots, you are misinterpreting my participation and intentions. If you have problems with my participation, I shall leave you to it. You really have not answered my questions either which pre-empts any exchange of information. Questions are asked for clarification, e.g.

Well now, Boots, if you only want replies to you and not to each other in this thread that is another matter altogether.
Are you wanting to be a teacher and the participants the students?
or
Are you wanting insights into this Scripture to improve your own walk? Be forewarned, insights into any Scripture will entail the inclusion of other Scripture as the Bible is a woven whole, a contextual work. Isolating verses or chapters leads to error in understanding.

That said and at the end of the day, I shall not attempt to communicate with you further.

[Bootstrap]

I’ve appreciated this discussion so far, particularly the distinction between “those within” and “those without”. How do you discern at what point someone is “without”? In my church, we discern it as people who are baptised and also attend communion. We do include all people in our congregations, not just the local one.

That's a really great question - and I think it's a hard one. Different denominations and churches take different approaches.

In this passage, I think it's pretty clear that the man who is being kicked out is really being kicked out, and should be shunned. Paul isn't saying he can feel free to participate in the fellowship, but without formal membership. But this is pretty serious sin, too. For other circumstances, I think we have to look at other passages.

[Josh]

I’ve appreciated this discussion so far, particularly the distinction between “those within” and “those without”. How do you discern at what point someone is “without”? In my church, we discern it as people who are baptised and also attend communion. We do include all people in our congregations, not just the local one.

That's a really great question - and I think it's a hard one. Different denominations and churches take different approaches.

In this passage, I think it's pretty clear that the man who is being kicked out is really being kicked out, and should be shunned. Paul isn't saying he can feel free to participate in the fellowship, but without formal membership. But this is pretty serious sin, too. For other circumstances, I think we have to look at other passages.

Good point, and that’s getting off topic for this specific thread - but the advice in James to try to win someone back seems relevant. (Perhaps that’s a good passage for a future thread.)

I struggle with how to apply this even in my own congregation. I often have spent time with people who are excommunicated, and would really want the same were I in their shoes. Often this means spending time at a local diner at 6:30 in the morning.

We try not to legalistically apply rules of don’t eat together - don’t shake hands - don’t go to communion together, but there isn’t an excellent way to sit and talk one on one sometimes beyond that local diner option. So I’ve done that, and sometimes just gotten coffee instead of jubilantly sharing a meal. My goal is not to push a hurting person into feeling offended and rejected.

Of course, it seems treatment is a bit different for an excommunicant who is repentant and wants to be right with God again. I haven’t really spent much time with an excommunicant who sees zero problems in their life in a diner - and they’ve usually been happy to talk to me on their own terms somewhere else.

[Bootstrap]

Good point, and that’s getting off topic for this specific thread - but the advice in James to try to win someone back seems relevant. (Perhaps that’s a good passage for a future thread.)

Go for it! I'd love a thread on that verse:

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

And if redemption is the goal of removing this man from the church in Corinth, I think that implies we should try to bring him back from his wandering. That's implied, not stated, but I think the things you mention are decent applications of this. It's hard. It requires discernment. It's not always clear what is best. Redemptive love is like that.

[Josh]

There's one outstanding topic in 1 Corinthians 5, and it's the very difficult question of how to process someone who very much feels like he is a Christian in good standing and should be part of your fellowship, but as far as I'm concerned and the rest of my local congregants are concerned, we have some major differences - enough to stand between us and full fellowship.

In the plain Anabaptist context, this is almost always about nonresistance, with divorce & remarriage being a distant second.

In the rest of the Christian world, issues of traditional biblical morality vs current prevailing social ethics seem to be very common here. (This is a bit more relevant to 1 Corinthians 5.)

To give an example, at one point I attended a Bible study together that functioned as a quasi-church, despite the fact that myself and the leader of it did not wish for it to be so. One person who attended seem to think cohabiting was OK, and the other attendees had recently become born again and were convicted cohabiting is not OK. It ended up becoming necessary to tell the person he wasn't welcome to be a full part of the Bible study fellowship unless he changes his moral views and behaviour.

The same thing happened a few months later, but with someone who fell into believing false doctrine - specifically, that Paul and Peter's works are not inspired, that some things Jesus said in the New Testament actually are different due to "translations", and (oddly enough) that "every herb of the field" meant the Bible endorsed marijuana use. I really wanted to stay in fellowship, and suspected some mental issues, but it was impossible when he would disrupt Bible study to promote his ideas.

Some things I learned from this:

#1. As appealing as a Bible study is or other quasi-church setting, they are structurally not sound once someone has to deal with any kind of problems. I shudder to think, for example, if someone in our Bible study had been engaging in grooming & abuse. The Bible study was full of high school kids, many under 18.

#2. There is simply no way to deal with a person who chooses to live in sin, other than leadership acting decisively, and doing so with the support of the rest of the congregation (or Bible study).

#3. Bible study isn't a good context for discipleship. It tends to become an intellectual exercise and doesn't have enough of living life together and walking side by side to deal with a situation like the second example I gave above. If the centre of our fellowship hadn't been reading the New Testament and then saying what we thought it said, his personal misconceptions (which no doubt arose from some simple Google searches) would not have dominated our relationship with him.

#4. Clearly defined membership and clean communion are really important. It simply does not work to try to have close fellowship with everyone who merely claims to be a believer.

[Sudsy]

My understanding of the Corinthian church is that, although it had gifts of the Spirit in operation and Paul needed to give them some guidance on these, there was various sinning going on in the church (I.e at communion time) that Paul could have also used to excommunicated people from the church.

But this situation in chapter 5 was said to be something that even pagans viewed as wrong. This was a sinful situation that gave Christ following a bad name. This church didn't seem to care of what sinners outside the church thought was sin and it seems they were even arrogant about how they could openly sin and feel free to do so.

So, it seems to me, there is sinning within a local church that outsiders are not aware or interested in but they should be dealt with in the church. I remember when having a TV was a sin but outsiders didn't have an interest in whether or not a Christian had one. Outsiders were probably unaware of the drinking and abusive treatment going on in the Corinthian church regarding communion observance. Paul didn't say to start kicking out people guilty of this sinning but rather gave them teachings that this was wrong.

For a church group to grow spiritually I believe there must be allowance for spiritual growth and this will require a growth in Holy living. Within the church patience and love needs to be reflected in this development. If a person does not respect the general understandings of holiness and creates strife in the church over it, there is a way to handle this using scripture without immediate excommunication.

Is this then a possibility that sinning in a local church that even outsiders (pagans) deem as wrong is to be given different treatment than dealing with other types of sinning or beliefs within a local fellowship ?

[Bootstrap]

There's one outstanding topic in 1 Corinthians 5, and it's the very difficult question of how to process someone who very much feels like he is a Christian in good standing and should be part of your fellowship, but as far as I'm concerned and the rest of my local congregants are concerned, we have some major differences - enough to stand between us and full fellowship.

That's a hot topic in MC-USA right now.

To give an example, at one point I attended a Bible study together that functioned as a quasi-church, despite the fact that myself and the leader of it did not wish for it to be so. One person who attended seem to think cohabiting was OK, and the other attendees had recently become born again and were convicted cohabiting is not OK. It ended up becoming necessary to tell the person he wasn't welcome to be a full part of the Bible study fellowship unless he changes his moral views and behaviour.

In a Bible study group that I led many years ago, a married woman showed up with her boyfriend and insisted that he take her husband's place in the group. There was no way we could do that, of course. She and her husband eventually divorced, her husband remained in our group, she did not.

#1. As appealing as a Bible study is or other quasi-church setting, they are structurally not sound once someone has to deal with any kind of problems. I shudder to think, for example, if someone in our Bible study had been engaging in grooming & abuse. The Bible study was full of high school kids, many under 18.

#2. There is simply no way to deal with a person who chooses to live in sin, other than leadership acting decisively, and doing so with the support of the rest of the congregation (or Bible study).

#3. Bible study isn't a good context for discipleship. It tends to become an intellectual exercise and doesn't have enough of living life together and walking side by side to deal with a situation like the second example I gave above. If the centre of our fellowship hadn't been reading the New Testament and then saying what we thought it said, his personal misconceptions (which no doubt arose from some simple Google searches) would not have dominated our relationship with him.

I would say that solid Bible study is necessary but not sufficient. It's only one of the important things that a church needs.

#4. Clearly defined membership and clean communion are really important. It simply does not work to try to have close fellowship with everyone who merely claims to be a believer.

I agree.