Sexual Immorality in 1 Corinthians 5

[MaxPC]

4. We will focus on how we apply the text ourselves, not on how other people should.

What is your praxis vis a vis this text? How do you integrate with your personal discipleship walk; your heart attitude (as opposed to just sterile scholarship or "head knowledge").

[Bootstrap]

4. We will focus on how we apply the text ourselves, not on how other people should.

What is your praxis vis a vis this text? How do you integrate with your personal discipleship walk; your heart attitude (as opposed to just sterile scholarship or "head knowledge").

I think you can see a lot of that just looking through this thread, which has been very focused on what simple obedience to the text means. For instance:

I agree that we need to talk about degeneracy in the broader culture, but we need to do so as the Kingdom of God. We are not Caesar. We cannot force the world to do anything. Our weapons are not carnal. We are here to show redemptive love, calling people to holiness, grace, and mercy. When we do that right, it will look and feel like Jesus or like Paul or like others in the early church.

Most viral content on the Internet is carnal, much of it is false, much of it approaches political and cultural issues with religious condemnation. Politics is the new religion in America, and it constantly sits in judgement - but not according to truth. We cannot be the hands and feet of Jesus to the world around us by promoting that stuff.

That's a pretty good summary of how I try to apply this. There are some people here who know me and know some details of my personal life, the issues I deal with, how I try to go about this. Most of that doesn't belong on a public forum.

[MaxPC]

I see a lot of third person statements but none of the personal impact nor efforts. Perhaps this will make it easier if I provide our praxis examples.

In my household we took deliberate steps to separate our children from the world. We personally chose places to visit that did not even imply immorality. We monitored all publications being read. We were present and involved in the children's activities to monitor behaviors quietly.

Once internet arrived we did not permit internet until sufficient maturity and parental education was in place. Porn is freely available and rampant on the internet. Immodesty is rampant. Filthy talk is rampant.

We discussed the Theology of the Body from the Catholic perspective, again, once they were old enough. My parents taught me that respect for the other person means chastity, fidelity and recognition of the dignity of my spouse.

We discussed good decisions vs bad decisions in all aspects of life as well as the rewards (good decisions) and the consequences (bad decisions).

When the grandchildren reached an age for the topic, they felt free to come to us for questions as well.

[Sudsy]

More observations -

I find this interesting - 1 Cor 5:2 - And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

In my experience those labelled 'conservative' were those Christians who thought of themselves as 'more holy living' than those labeled as 'liberals'. Often compared to the Pharisees in Jesus time on earth due to their very restrictive ways of obedying God. I was raised in such a household with a certain attitude that showed up at times as anything not Pentecostal was living below a Spirit lead life. And, at times, this attitude was quite arrogant.

But it seems in the Corinthian church, as well as other churches in the early times, the problem was the other way around. It seems their understandings of what it meant to now be set free meant quite a broad range of freedoms to live as you care to. They were even being arrogant about this freedom to allow whatever to go on among them. Paul already mentioned this attitude in the previous chapter. He also talked to them about identification with a specific teacher, which is another thing to consider sometime.

Today, I see both happening. An arrogance amongst both those labelled 'liberal' and those labelled 'conservative' churches. One can view the other as 'legalists' and the other view others as 'worldly' sometimes to the extent of doubting they are even saved. Reminds me of Jesus words about first casting out the log in our own eye so we can rightly consider the speck in our brothers eye.

Another thing interesting to me Paul makes no reference to discipline or action against the woman involved in this relationship. Do we assume that she was not a Christian or an attender of their meetings and it was not the church's responsibility to discipline her (1 Corinthians 5:13) ?

[MaxPC]

More observations -

I find this interesting - 1 Cor 5:2 - And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

In my experience those labelled 'conservative' were those Christians who thought of themselves as 'more holy living' than those labeled as 'liberals'. Often compared to the Pharisees in Jesus time on earth due to their very restrictive ways of obedying God. I was raised in such a household with a certain attitude that showed up at times as anything not Pentecostal was living below a Spirit lead life. And, at times, this attitude was quite arrogant.

But it seems in the Corinthian church, as well as other churches in the early times, the problem was the other way around. It seems their understandings of what it meant to now be set free meant quite a broad range of freedoms to live as you care to. They were even being arrogant about this freedom to allow whatever to go on among them. Paul already mentioned this attitude in the previous chapter. He also talked to them about identification with a specific teacher, which is another thing to consider sometime.

Today, I see both happening. An arrogance amongst both those labelled 'liberal' and those labelled 'conservative' churches. One can view the other as 'legalists' and the other view others as 'worldly' sometimes to the extent of doubting they are even saved. Reminds me of Jesus words about first casting out the log in our own eye so we can rightly consider the speck in our brothers eye.

Another thing interesting to me Paul makes no reference to discipline or action against the woman involved in this relationship. Do we assume that she was not a Christian or an attender of their meetings and it was not the church's responsibility to discipline her (1 Corinthians 5:13) ?

Spot on, Sudsy. I appreciate your points as always.
I do think it is important, especially in the raising of children, that the faith be taught as personal, daily decisions in making good choices vs bad choices. That the faith is a daily, personal walk; not an exercise in caste systems, nor a sterile academic exercise.

[PetrChelcicky]

My impression is that Paul had not the least idea about ethics (as a critical reflection of moral habits). He simply gathered some habits which were detested in his environment. With other words, he was a conformist.
Being obedient to Jesus does not imply being obedient to Paul. We can agree with Paul where experience leads us to the same solutions, but that is not obedience.

[MaxPC]

My impression is that Paul had not the least idea about ethics (as a critical reflection of moral habits). He simply gathered some habits which were detested in his environment. With other words, he was a conformist.
Being obedient to Jesus does not imply being obedient to Paul. We can agree with Paul where experience leads us to the same solutions, but that is not obedience.

Interesting perspective, Petr. I have always considered Paul, who was a Pharisee, well educated in ethics as a part of his education in rabbinical theology. I am of the perspective that Paul preached obedience to Christ and not to men per the epistle 1 Corinthians 3:

On Divisions in the Corinthian Church
3 But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving like ordinary men? 4 For when one says, “I belong to Paul,” and another, “I belong to Apol′los,” are you not merely men?
5 What then is Apol′los? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apol′los watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10 According to the commission of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.
18 Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So let no one boast of men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apol′los or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future, all are yours; 23 and you are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

[Bootstrap]

Request: In this thread, could you focus on 1 Corinthians 5 and link what you say to the text, interpreting it in context?

To me, this passage is about dealing with sin in our midst, not how to raise children. To me, these are direct applications of this passage:

• Paul says not to focus on judging people outside our church, that's not our calling: "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside."
• Paul is concerned with the purity of his church - “Purge the evil person from among you.”
• Paul says that this man should be removed from the church - but he says that the goal of this is the man's salvation: "you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord." People have interpreted this different ways, but whatever it means, the goal is clearly salvation, not condemnation.
• Paul is not saying we should not associate with sinners who are not in the Kingdom - "not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world" - this is not in conflict with the ministry of Jesus, who clearly reached out to them in compassion.
• Paul is clearly saying we should not associate with unrepentant sinners who claim to be brothers in our churches - ""I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
• The list in the last bullet point includes "reviler" and "greed" and "swindler", not just sexual immorality. A sexually immoral person who is not a reviler is still sexually immoral; a reviler who is not sexually immoral is still a reviler.

Max would like me to spell this out a little more. I can do that a little.

The bullet points above gives us some very practical guidelines. There are sinners who need to be removed from the church for the sake of the church, and we should not paper that over. The real danger is that the church starts to accept and even promote that sin. This is an issue in many churches, including MC-USA and many Catholic parishes, where gay sex and gay marriage is being actively promoted, things that I believe are in direct contradiction to the Bible. That is not happening in my local congregation, which puts us at odds with some neighboring congregations. I am in a conservative district in a conservative conference. So I go to listening sessions and such and speak to these things. I address these things when I preach. I know a little about Greek and Hebrew and the Bible, people sometimes ask me questions about claims people have made, and I answer them as accurately as possible.

I keep my focus on my local congregation, which is working within our district, and we will have to make decisions in the coming year.

We have had people come to our church hoping we would accept things that we do not. I try to be both loving and clear. They eventually go somewhere else, because they want a church that agrees with them. We won't proclaim gay marriage. We won't promote reviling. We aren't focused on judging people outside our church, we are focused on showing redemptive love.

For the most part, we need to focus on strengthening and growing our church and on the things that set us apart as a church, so we are trying to keep turning our attention to Jesus and what he said and did, how the Bible calls us to live, etc., not on what other people are doing.

This passage also gives me guidelines for how to relate to sinners outside the church - I do associate with sinners, just as Jesus did. I don't know how to live in redemptive love without doing that.

[Bootstrap]

My impression is that Paul had not the least idea about ethics (as a critical reflection of moral habits). He simply gathered some habits which were detested in his environment. With other words, he was a conformist.
Being obedient to Jesus does not imply being obedient to Paul. We can agree with Paul where experience leads us to the same solutions, but that is not obedience.

I'd like this thread to be reserved for those who believe in simple obedience to Scripture and want to apply this passage to their own lives. Perhaps you could start another thread if you want to discuss those things?

[MaxPC]

Well now, Boots, if you only want replies to you and not to each other in this thread that is another matter altogether.
Are you wanting to be a teacher and the participants the students?
or
Are you wanting insights into this Scripture to improve your own walk? Be forewarned, insights into any Scripture will entail the inclusion of other Scripture as the Bible is a woven whole, a contextual work. Isolating verses or chapters leads to error in understanding.

The role expectations on the part of the OP are important as to the decision to participate in this thread or no. I prefer to converse with each other as well as the OP as an adult. If this does not suit your agenda, I shall most certainly leave you to it.