Sexual Immorality in 1 Corinthians 5

[Bootstrap]

If someone is outside our church, we know that people in the world are worldly, but we are not called to be their judges, to sit in judgement on them, to tell them that we are too pure to have anything to do with them. ( Again, this needs to be compared to other passages that raise concerns about who we associate with. )

A few things about this specifically.

Just because someone is not in our local church does not mean we should accept any amount of outward sin, even if their congregation is not dealing with it. I think our first and foremost duty is to the local church, and there are bands of responsibility that radiate out from there. The further removed someone is from our daily life and locale, the harder it is for us to judge their spiritual state accurately, and the more cautious and gracious I believe we should be. But that does not mean an automatic get-out-of-jail-free card.

What does it mean for us to "not accept any amount of outward sin" for someone who isn't even in our church? Who is asking us if we accept it? How can we every know enough to be sure that we are judging wisely?

You don't want them to have a get-out-of-jail-free card. But what authority do we have to put them in any jail? Or act as judge and jury for them?

I think Paul is saying they simply aren't in our jursdiction when he says this:

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

We have neither competence nor authority to judge them. God is their judge. (1 Corinthians 6 has more to say about jurisdiction, FWIW. )

Regarding judging unbelievers, liberals have a great deal to say about what they perceive as injustice in the world, for instance, slavery, racism, hate crimes, the list goes on and on. Yet, to show the obvious evil that is the LGBT agenda is immediately met with objections of not judging unbelievers.

Personally I believe that this behavior is explained by Jonathan Haidt's research on liberal vs conservative minds, and finding that liberal minds are unbalance and underdeveloped in 3/5 moral foundations. Still, from a Christian perspective, this must not happen. Christians are allowed to call out evil when they see it. it's not the same as judging a fellow believer who is living in sin, it's merely speaking the reality of what is happening, which is one of the things Christians are supposed to do.

What does this passage say about these questions?

Reminder:

I would like to request that people in this thread follow these rules:

1. We will focus on this passage. We will use other threads for other passages.
2. We will start by asking and answering simple answers about what the passage says - objective things that we expect we can probably agree on.
3. We will talk about the text, not about other people.
4. We will focus on how we apply the text ourselves, not on how other people should. But we will start by understanding what the text meant when Paul wrote it before we go on to application.

[Bootstrap]

A few more:

• Paul says not to focus on judging people outside our church, that's not our calling: "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside."
• Paul is concerned with the purity of his church - “Purge the evil person from among you.”

Should your first point here also include passing judgment on how politicians and all those outside the local church act ? Seems to me there is considerable pointing act unbelievers who don't live up to certain Christian values when there but for the grace of God, go I.

You make a good point here, Sudsy.

Here's how I currently see it. When someone like that is brought INTO the church as an important leader we should honor or follow, asking members of the church to buy into whatever they are selling, then we do have to judge. Not that we can remove him from our church physically if he is not a member, but we can be clear that we do not think church members should be following this person's teaching. Paul speaks about certain leaders in his time this way. If someone promoted as a hero within the church is overtly evil, that probably needs saying too.

This applies to politicized Christianity. This applies to attempts to redefine Christian morality. This applies to toxic Christianity that does not look like the love of Jesus. This looks like racist Christianity. When that happens, I think it's important to be able to say "no, that's worldly stuff, that's not what Scripture teaches us to do." And sometimes that means speaking about the leaders of these movements. It's the same concern Paul has in this passage - casting the bad yeast out of the church.

But we don't need to go looking for people to judge if they aren't treated as leaders our churches should defend or be loyal to or follow. Let's not delight in seeking out sin to tell stories about. That's gossip and being a busybody, Scripture is clear that's not good. We don't need to look on the Internet for a new outrage every day so that our brothers and sisters can watch us denounce them, join in, and approve - "to be seen by men". That's not our calling, and it also gets really slimy and takes our attention off of our own need to grow in simply obeying Scripture, loving God, and loving neighbor. I think our focus should be in this direction instead:

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

At least, that's how I see it. How do you approach this? (Question is open to anyone, not just Sudsy.)

[Bootstrap]

I find looking at Job to be helpful in that regard.

Can you say more about this? I don't really know what you mean to say here.

[Soloist]

Satan was allowed to harm Job’s body.

[nett]

If someone is outside our church, we know that people in the world are worldly, but we are not called to be their judges, to sit in judgement on them, to tell them that we are too pure to have anything to do with them. ( Again, this needs to be compared to other passages that raise concerns about who we associate with. )

A few things about this specifically.

Just because someone is not in our local church does not mean we should accept any amount of outward sin, even if their congregation is not dealing with it. I think our first and foremost duty is to the local church, and there are bands of responsibility that radiate out from there. The further removed someone is from our daily life and locale, the harder it is for us to judge their spiritual state accurately, and the more cautious and gracious I believe we should be. But that does not mean an automatic get-out-of-jail-free card.

What does it mean for us to "not accept any amount of outward sin" for someone who isn't even in our church? Who is asking us if we accept it? How can we every know enough to be sure that we are judging wisely?

You don't want them to have a get-out-of-jail-free card. But what authority do we have to put them in any jail? Or act as judge and jury for them?

I think Paul is saying they simply aren't in our jursdiction when he says this:

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

We have neither competence nor authority to judge them. God is their judge. (1 Corinthians 6 has more to say about jurisdiction, FWIW. )

Even in light of 1 Cor 6, is Paul referring to the global church here, or just Corinth? keep in mind that he didn't live in Corinth...

Regarding judging unbelievers, liberals have a great deal to say about what they perceive as injustice in the world, for instance, slavery, racism, hate crimes, the list goes on and on. Yet, to show the obvious evil that is the LGBT agenda is immediately met with objections of not judging unbelievers.

Personally I believe that this behavior is explained by Jonathan Haidt's research on liberal vs conservative minds, and finding that liberal minds are unbalance and underdeveloped in 3/5 moral foundations. Still, from a Christian perspective, this must not happen. Christians are allowed to call out evil when they see it. it's not the same as judging a fellow believer who is living in sin, it's merely speaking the reality of what is happening, which is one of the things Christians are supposed to do.

What does this passage say about these questions?

All I'm saying is that it's disingenuous to use this passage to try to silence anything being said about degeneracy in the broader culture. I don't think I've really ever spoken of individuals who are unbelievers with a desire to condemn them personally, which is all that Paul is saying. Paul mentions the more serious sin that the world has going on, would anyone accuse him of judging unbelievers who do such things? I'd assume not.

[ohio jones]

Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

A bit of context that we should be aware of, that the Jewish believers in Corinth would have immediately related this to. The seven days before Passover are the Feast of Unleavened Bread, before which all leaven was to be removed from the home.

Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel.

Observant Jews still practice this by doing a thorough spring housecleaning, even scrubbing the cracks in the countertops to remove any stray bread crumbs. Paul is reminding us of the seriousness of sin, which keeps us from participating in the Passover sacrifice of Christ. The person who is obviously and unrepentantly eating the leaven of sin must be cut off and removed.

Mennonites tend to think this is a membership thing and that it’s referring to communion.

Yes, the standard cM approach equates communion with Passover and has a leaven-removal meeting a week before. While this is not inherently wrong, it misses the point that Jesus was a "once for all time" sacrifice and Passover is no longer an annual (or semi-annual!) ceremony. When the leaven of sin is found, it must be removed, regardless of what the calendar says.

[Bootstrap]

Satan was allowed to harm Job’s body.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that connection.

of course, Job's character was blameless when God gave him that permission. In Job, it's not a kind of punishment, it's a test.

Job's Character and Wealth

There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil. There were born to him seven sons and three daughters. He possessed 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, and 500 female donkeys, and very many servants, so that this man was the greatest of all the people of the east. His sons used to go and hold a feast in the house of each one on his day, and they would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. And when the days of the feast had run their course, Job would send and consecrate them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, “It may be that my children have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did continually.

Satan Allowed to Test Job

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

[Bootstrap]

Even in light of 1 Cor 6, is Paul referring to the global church here, or just Corinth? keep in mind that he didn't live in Corinth...

Paul founded the church in Corinth (see Acts 18). And both 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians make it quite clear that Paul felt he had a pastoral responsibility to the church in Corinth.

Paul did not write this way to the church in Jerusalem or other churches where he had no pastoral responsibility. Paul did rebuke Peter when Peter was in Galatia, a church for which Paul was responsible, and Peter was refusing to eat with the believers there.

I think the theme of jurisdiction is real here and in the following chapter and in other parts of the New Testament. I'm not saying there is never a place to criticize another church or a church, I wouldn't take it that far, but Paul's words should give us pause about sitting in judgement on others. In general, I think we sound more like the Kingdom of God when we say "have mercy on me, a sinner" and not "I think you that I am not like that tax collector over there". So if sitting in judgement on outsiders becomes a main focus of our conversation, I think we in dangerous spiritual territory.

What does this passage say about these questions?

All I'm saying is that it's disingenuous to use this passage to try to silence anything being said about degeneracy in the broader culture. I don't think I've really ever spoken of individuals who are unbelievers with a desire to condemn them personally, which is all that Paul is saying. Paul mentions the more serious sin that the world has going on, would anyone accuse him of judging unbelievers who do such things? I'd assume not.

I think we've been pretty ingenuous looking at this text together. I don't think anyone is distorting it in this thread. But if there's anything you think I or anyone else is misinterpreting, I would like to hear what you have to say.

I agree that we need to talk about degeneracy in the broader culture, but we need to do so as the Kingdom of God. We are not Caesar. We cannot force the world to do anything. Our weapons are not carnal. We are here to show redemptive love, calling people to holiness, grace, and mercy. When we do that right, it will look and feel like Jesus or like Paul or like others in the early church.

Most viral content on the Internet is carnal, much of it is false, much of it approaches political and cultural issues with religious condemnation. Politics is the new religion in America, and it constantly sits in judgement - but not according to truth. We cannot be the hands and feet of Jesus to the world around us by promoting that stuff.

I think it would be helpful to look at some scriptures that talk about how we, in the Kingdom of God, relate to the carnal world around us. Most of the viral content we see on the Internet is not coming from a Kingdom of God perspective.

[Sudsy]

Just want to say how I enjoy this type of thread where a Scripture text is studied and we share what this means to us and how we should live as Christ ambassadors.

Interesting to me also how Paul begins this letter and what he writes leading up to chapter 5. There is much to consider in the first 4 chapters and perhaps we can study them too in the future, Lord willing.

I was about to permanently bail out of this forum but if this kind of study is pursued I look forward to more.

[Bootstrap]

Just want to say how I enjoy this type of thread where a Scripture text is studied and we share what this means to us and how we should live as Christ ambassadors.

I think I'll start more threads like this. I like the way it went.

Interesting to me also how Paul begins this letter and what he writes leading up to chapter 5. There is much to consider in the first 4 chapters and perhaps we can study them too in the future, Lord willing.

I might actually move forward first. The next two pericopes are very much on point.