Sexual Immorality in 1 Corinthians 5

[MaxPC]

Translation?

Here is a comparative side by side of three translations. The parallel translation approach works well for me.
Biblegateway Parallels

I used the ESV. Which is in the middle column of the translations you list. The word "reviler" or "slanderer" is rendered differently in different translations, here's an overview of how it is translated in various translations, with a few comments from commentaries and lexicons.

a. λοίδορος (LN 33.395) (BAGD p. 479): ‘slanderer’ [He, LN; NIV, NJB, REB, TEV], ‘reviler’ [AB, BAGD, Lns; NASB, NRSV], ‘abusive person’ [BAGD, HNTC; TNT], ‘railer’ [KJV]. It is also translated as an adjective: ‘abusive’ [LB, TNT]. It is also translated as a verb: ‘to be given to abusive language’ [ICC]. This kind of person says evil things which are not true about others or falsely accuses others of sinning [TG]. He speaks in a highly insulting manner [LN].

Ronald Trail, An Exegetical Summary of 1 Corinthians 1–9 (Dallas, TX: SIL International, 2008), 216–217.

Yes, most of us know the Greek and have quite a few commentaries. What is needed upfront is
A) the translation and edition used and
B) a bibliography of the commentaries and dictionaries used and referenced.
That will create a straightforward premise for an honest discussion of the theme.

These essentials can and do influence a denominational perspective.

[Sudsy]

This is a Bible study thread, open to people who believe in simple obedience to Scripture. I would like to request that people in this thread follow these rules:

1. We will focus on this passage. We will use other threads for other passages.
2. We will start by asking and answering simple answers about what the passage says - objective things that we expect we can probably agree on.
3. We will talk about the text, not about other people.
4. We will focus on how we apply the text ourselves, not on how other people should. But we will start by understanding what the text meant when Paul wrote it before we go on to application.

Can you clarify what 'simple obedience to Scripture' means ? Does it mean that whatever Paul wrote to a church in his letter is to be taken as applicable to every Christian church from that point forward in a very literal manner and there is only one simple or straightforward way of understanding and applying what he wrote here ?

[Soloist]

Can you clarify what 'simple obedience to Scripture' means ? Does it mean that whatever Paul wrote to a church in his letter is to be taken as applicable to every Christian church from that point forward in a very literal manner and there is only one simple or straightforward way of understanding and applying what he wrote here ?

Well Paul was either writing so people could understand him or not. If Paul’s letters were only for one church, then none of his teachings apply to us. I guess that means we can fall back on what Jesus said. Looks to me like what Jesus spoke agrees with Paul. This leaves the excuse of being spirit led to discount what is said or some complicated theological nonsense to explain away it.

[Sudsy]

Can you clarify what 'simple obedience to Scripture' means ? Does it mean that whatever Paul wrote to a church in his letter is to be taken as applicable to every Christian church from that point forward in a very literal manner and there is only one simple or straightforward way of understanding and applying what he wrote here ?

Well Paul was either writing so people could understand him or not. If Paul’s letters were only for one church, then none of his teachings apply to us. I guess that means we can fall back on what Jesus said. Looks to me like what Jesus spoke agrees with Paul. This leaves the excuse of being spirit led to discount what is said or some complicated theological nonsense to explain away it.

So, what did Jesus say that addressed a situation like this ?

[Soloist]

So, what did Jesus say that addressed a situation like this ?

Mat 18:15  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Two ways someone could understand this, Jesus is saying treat them how I treat them… or treat them how you treat them.
Logic should ask the question what was Jewish practice? Clearly Jesus disregarded the practice of eating with sinners but He was teaching a new way and in context of what Paul said I believe the second is the correct understanding otherwise Paul was teaching against what Jesus said.

[Bootstrap]

Translation?

Here is a comparative side by side of three translations. The parallel translation approach works well for me.
Biblegateway Parallels

I used the ESV. Which is in the middle column of the translations you list. The word "reviler" or "slanderer" is rendered differently in different translations, here's an overview of how it is translated in various translations, with a few comments from commentaries and lexicons.

a. λοίδορος (LN 33.395) (BAGD p. 479): ‘slanderer’ [He, LN; NIV, NJB, REB, TEV], ‘reviler’ [AB, BAGD, Lns; NASB, NRSV], ‘abusive person’ [BAGD, HNTC; TNT], ‘railer’ [KJV]. It is also translated as an adjective: ‘abusive’ [LB, TNT]. It is also translated as a verb: ‘to be given to abusive language’ [ICC]. This kind of person says evil things which are not true about others or falsely accuses others of sinning [TG]. He speaks in a highly insulting manner [LN].

Ronald Trail, An Exegetical Summary of 1 Corinthians 1–9 (Dallas, TX: SIL International, 2008), 216–217.

Yes, most of us know the Greek and have quite a few commentaries.

I'm guessing most people here actually don't know Greek, but I could be wrong. There are a few who do.

The Exegetical Summaries try to summarize the major positions found in commentaries, identifying the source for each. They focus a lot on the meaning of specific phrases. Initials like LN, NIV, NJB, REB, TEV, etc. identify the sources.

What is needed upfront is
A) the translation and edition used and

I used the same ESV that you did in your middle column. Did that answer your question? Feel free to cite other translations and make observations based on them.

B) a bibliography of the commentaries and dictionaries used and referenced.

The bibliography is in the Exegetical Summaries. I gave you the reference if you want to look it up. Typing in a bibliography seems like a bit more work than I want to do. If you have a dictionary or commentary or translation that you prefer, by all means, use it.

[Bootstrap]

Can you clarify what 'simple obedience to Scripture' means ? Does it mean that whatever Paul wrote to a church in his letter is to be taken as applicable to every Christian church from that point forward in a very literal manner and there is only one simple or straightforward way of understanding and applying what he wrote here ?

I mean simple obedience to Scripture taken as a whole, and I guess I'd like to add: using what Jesus said and did as a prism.

There may well be more than one way to understand a text. That's why we look at it together, to bring in different perspectives. And even if we understand it the same way, we may apply it in different ways.

Simple obedience to Scripture doesn't mean that every Christian should follow this command:

Make yourself an ark of gopher wood. Make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch. This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark 300 cubits, its breadth 50 cubits, and its height 30 cubits. Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above, and set the door of the ark in its side. Make it with lower, second, and third decks.

I think it probably does mean that every Christian should follow this command:

Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Deep down, I think we all know that we don't apply God's instructions to Noah the same way that Noah did. And we know that this teaching of Jesus apply to us directly today. And we know that sometimes we have to discern before we know which is which. If you are on that journey, and I think you are, then you fit the definition of simple obedience to Scripture from the OP. If you think the Bible is outdated as a moral guide, or aren't seeking to be a disciple of biblical teaching as understood through what Jesus said and did, this isn't the right thread.

So I think we do have to start by understanding what the text meant to them then, reading it carefully in context, then compare it to other texts, also read carefully in context, then ask how to apply it to our lives now.

[Ken]

Can you clarify what 'simple obedience to Scripture' means ? Does it mean that whatever Paul wrote to a church in his letter is to be taken as applicable to every Christian church from that point forward in a very literal manner and there is only one simple or straightforward way of understanding and applying what he wrote here ?

Well Paul was either writing so people could understand him or not. If Paul’s letters were only for one church, then none of his teachings apply to us. I guess that means we can fall back on what Jesus said. Looks to me like what Jesus spoke agrees with Paul. This leaves the excuse of being spirit led to discount what is said or some complicated theological nonsense to explain away it.

I don't think it is an either-or proposition.

Yes Paul was writing to a specific congregation and addressing specific issues they were having which may not be entirely clear to us since we are only seeing one side of the conversation. We don't have whatever letters that the Corinthians wrote to Paul. Those are lost to history. Presumably it was not just a one-sided conversation.

But presumably Paul was not just giving arbitrary guidance to a specific congregation. He was basing his teaching on higher principles. One can't really call them Biblical principles because the Bible did not yet exist at that point. But higher principles based on Paul's understanding of the teachings of Jesus such as they were available to him at that time and the spiritual guidance he received.

So I think it is reasonable to ask both: (1) what were the specific circumstances that Paul was addressing with respect to the church in Corinth, and (2) how do those teachings or instructions apply to our lives two millennia later. This is a letter he wrote to a specific church. Paul did not really sit down to write a single holy text addressed universally to all Christians for all time in the same manner that, for example, the Koran was transcribed from the words of Mohammad. But it is also based on higher principles that are more universal even if the circumstances of our lives and churches are vastly different today. The trick is threading the needle in an honest and humble fashion. I am always suspicious of people who loudly assert that they have the one and only correct interpretation of this or any other passage of scripture.

[Soloist]

I am always suspicious of people who loudly assert that they have the one and only correct interpretation of this or any other passage of scripture.

I don’t feel that loud but I’m suspicious of anyone in or near Oregon. They all are liberals!

[Sudsy]

So, what did Jesus say that addressed a situation like this ?

Mat 18:15  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Two ways someone could understand this, Jesus is saying treat them how I treat them… or treat them how you treat them.
Logic should ask the question what was Jewish practice? Clearly Jesus disregarded the practice of eating with sinners but He was teaching a new way and in context of what Paul said I believe the second is the correct understanding otherwise Paul was teaching against what Jesus said.

Curious - do you think Paul knew what Jesus said in this Matthew text and if he did if there is a different way of handling a brother who sins against you than a professing brother who is sinning in some way that is not to be tolerated in a local church ? I see them as two different situations.

The other thought I have is if this verse 12 that can be understood that a believer has no business judging those outside their local church which could include politicians, all leaders of countries, basically anyone not born again ?