Socialism Vs. Capitalism

[Josh]

Our GPS system which the entire transportation sector relies on is entirely government run or "socialist".

This is because for years government regulation restricted private launches of rockets. Soon, Skylink will dwarf the GPS system.

They are separate things. Starlink is a network of communication satellites. You pay for the data that you use just like with a cell phone. Basically they are just cell phone towers in orbit.

GPS is a separate system of geosynchronous satellite beacons that generate signals used for geolocation. They generate constant one-way signals used by every GPS device. The reason it is public is because there is no logical way to monetize it because GPS devices are only one-way communication devices. They receive the GPS signal but don't send anything back. If GPS devices had to be 2-way devices in order to "handshake" with GPS satellites (like Starlink ) they would be much larger and more expensive devices and burn up lots of batteries. Starlink stations have large dish antennas. You can't carry them around in your pocket and you couldn't have GPS in a cell phone. Theoretically the government could pay private companies to launch GPS satellites and private companies to build them (in fact they already do). But there isn't a profit motive to installing and maintaining GPS satellites. They function as public infrastructure like public highways or street signs.

It would be trivial to make a pay-only GPS. After all, satellite TV is one way and does this.

[Ken]

This is because for years government regulation restricted private launches of rockets. Soon, Skylink will dwarf the GPS system.

They are separate things. Starlink is a network of communication satellites. You pay for the data that you use just like with a cell phone. Basically they are just cell phone towers in orbit.

GPS is a separate system of geosynchronous satellite beacons that generate signals used for geolocation. They generate constant one-way signals used by every GPS device. The reason it is public is because there is no logical way to monetize it because GPS devices are only one-way communication devices. They receive the GPS signal but don't send anything back. If GPS devices had to be 2-way devices in order to "handshake" with GPS satellites (like Starlink ) they would be much larger and more expensive devices and burn up lots of batteries. Starlink stations have large dish antennas. You can't carry them around in your pocket and you couldn't have GPS in a cell phone. Theoretically the government could pay private companies to launch GPS satellites and private companies to build them (in fact they already do). But there isn't a profit motive to installing and maintaining GPS satellites. They function as public infrastructure like public highways or street signs.

It would be trivial to make a pay-only GPS. After all, satellite TV is one way and does this.

We used to have DirectTV. It can be a ginormous hassle. You have to have a DirectTV branded receiver and have an access card that is activated within their system. If you have connection to a landline then it is relatively easy. The older receivers all needed to be plugged into a phone jack. If not you end up on the phone for hours trying to activate your card and if there are any glitches it can be days before you get your service up. It took me days and a lot of frustrating phone calls to get everything up and running in rural Texas because I did it myself rather than pay a ton of money to an installation company to come out and set everything up. Which itself would have taken weeks to get an appointment and installation time slot.

In any event GPS was developed by the government as a military technology and it was always going to be military-run first because the military is never going to rely on a private company for navigation and targeting during times of war. The civilian use is just a nice byproduct of the military investment. After GPS was up and running and ubiquitous the government took down the whole Loran-C land-based navigation system that it has was built in the 1950s and that had been used for air and sea navigation since then. Loran-C had basically replaced light houses and celestial navigation. All of which were part of the public transportation network in the US and around the world. There used to be Loran stations all up and down the coast and all over Alaska to provide navigational assistance as well as Loran beacons all over the continental US for aircraft navigation. GPS replaced all of that.

If we had depended on the private sector it never would have happened. And a private for-profit system like DirecTV would have been an absolute fiasco. Imagine a passenger plane crossing the arctic having it's navigation systems go down because of a billing glitch between Delta Airlines and some private GPS company. And the pilot on hold while trying to call some customer service rep in Bangalore India to get the account reactivated before the plane crashes. Or a ship at sea navigating in a storm having the same thing happen and being out of cell phone range to communicate with the company and get the GPS receiver reactivated. Such a system would be unworkable and the modern system in which GPS is used for everything from agriculture to utilities to cell phone navigation to inventory tracking would simply not exist. It all relies on a "socialized" system of government run satellites that provide location service for free to everyone in the world. Essentially we would still be using land-based Loran systems and only commercial ships and aircraft would really be using it as was the case in say the 1970s.

[Robert]

Our GPS system which the entire transportation sector relies on is entirely government run or "socialist".

This is because for years government regulation restricted private launches of rockets. Soon, Skylink will dwarf the GPS system.

They are separate things. Starlink is a network of communication satellites. You pay for the data that you use just like with a cell phone. Basically they are just cell phone towers in orbit.

GPS is a separate system of geosynchronous satellite beacons that generate signals used for geolocation. They generate constant one-way signals used by every GPS device. The reason it is public is because there is no logical way to monetize it because GPS devices are only one-way communication devices. They receive the GPS signal but don't send anything back. If GPS devices had to be 2-way devices in order to "handshake" with GPS satellites (like Starlink ) they would be much larger and more expensive devices and burn up lots of batteries. Starlink stations have large dish antennas. You can't carry them around in your pocket and you couldn't have GPS in a cell phone. Theoretically the government could pay private companies to launch GPS satellites and private companies to build them (in fact they already do). But there isn't a profit motive to installing and maintaining GPS satellites. They function as public infrastructure like public highways or street signs.

Google maps gets locations from cell phone towers. This is the same that is done with GPS satellites. Starlink has dishes about the size, if not a little smaller than satellite TV dishes. Receiving one way telemetry would be very simple from Starlink.

I really do not know what the argument is here. DO some argue for the sake of argument? My children do it. I think some here do the same.

Capitalism does not negate socialism. Many socialists are capitalists. Individualism is different. This is the point I am trying to make. All governments are to some extent socialism. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Even in the US, emanate domain is quite often practiced. I enjoy the benefits of that when I drive on roads or drink public water. I have never said we should have none of it. I am just contrasting socialism from individualism.

What I look at is a society more geared towards individualism or socialism? Ones that are more geared towards socialism will, by its nature, take away the rights and freedoms of the individual. It is like when Constantine marched the Roman soldiers through the river and claimed they were now baptized Christians. Collective salvation at its finest. I reject that concept. I see it as a very individual decision. I see all Christianity growing out of that individual decision.

[Ken]

This is because for years government regulation restricted private launches of rockets. Soon, Skylink will dwarf the GPS system.

They are separate things. Starlink is a network of communication satellites. You pay for the data that you use just like with a cell phone. Basically they are just cell phone towers in orbit.

GPS is a separate system of geosynchronous satellite beacons that generate signals used for geolocation. They generate constant one-way signals used by every GPS device. The reason it is public is because there is no logical way to monetize it because GPS devices are only one-way communication devices. They receive the GPS signal but don't send anything back. If GPS devices had to be 2-way devices in order to "handshake" with GPS satellites (like Starlink ) they would be much larger and more expensive devices and burn up lots of batteries. Starlink stations have large dish antennas. You can't carry them around in your pocket and you couldn't have GPS in a cell phone. Theoretically the government could pay private companies to launch GPS satellites and private companies to build them (in fact they already do). But there isn't a profit motive to installing and maintaining GPS satellites. They function as public infrastructure like public highways or street signs.

Google maps gets locations from cell phone towers. This is the same that is done with GPS satellites. Starlink has dishes about the size, if not a little smaller than satellite TV dishes. Receiving one way telemetry would be very simple from Starlink.

I really do not know what the argument is here. DO some argue for the sake of argument? My children do it. I think some here do the same.

Capitalism does not negate socialism. Many socialists are capitalists. Individualism is different. This is the point I am trying to make. All governments are to some extent socialism. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Even in the US, emanate domain is quite often practiced. I enjoy the benefits of that when I drive on roads or drink public water. I have never said we should have none of it. I am just contrasting socialism from individualism.

What I look at is a society more geared towards individualism or socialism? Ones that are more geared towards socialism will, by its nature, take away the rights and freedoms of the individual. It is like when Constantine marched the Roman soldiers through the river and claimed they were now baptized Christians. Collective salvation at its finest. I reject that concept. I see it as a very individual decision. I see all Christianity growing out of that individual decision.

I simply cited GPS as an example of "socialized" public infrastructure. The idea that it would have happened on its own without massive public investment is I think simply false. And even if some private company did manage to establish its own global network of GPS satellites the whole system would be so incredibly expensive that only corporate entities like airlines and maritime shipping companies would use it. And even then, probably not. They would more likely have just relied on the older land-based Loran-C system that was government run and free to use. GPS is a perfectly valid example of a socialized public infrastructure that the private sector would not have created on its own, or at least not in the useful 100% reliable and ubiquitous way that it works today. So in a very real sense, socialism and not capitalism gave us GPS.

Older cell phones did use cell towers for navigation. New cell phones all come with GPS chips integrated into their processors. What happens when you use Google maps is that your phone always knows your exact location due to the GPS chip but has to rely on the cell phone towers to download the map data in order to create the google map of your location. The Google map itself with all the streets and features comes from the internet not the GPS signal. You can check your actual location with your phone at any time anywhere in the world without a cell signal just by going to the compass app and your exact latitude and longitude will be displayed down to the exact meter. It always works whether or not you have a signal at all or have your cellular service turned on. It comes pre-installed on all Apple phones. I think on Android phones you need to download a compass or GPS app but the phone still knows where you are whether or not you have a cell signal.

You can avoid all of this by using google maps to download offline maps for whatever area you plan to be in. And then you can navigate using google maps without ever once getting a cell phone signal. I did this the last time we visited Costa Rica. I downloaded all of the google map data for all of Costa Rica and then used Google maps to seamlessly navigate back roads across the entire country while keeping my phone on airplane mode and without once turning on my cell phone data. Here in the west there are many remote rural and wilderness areas that are outside of cell phone range. So I always keep offline maps downloaded and up to date on my phone for everywhere I might ever drive in the Pacific Northwest and never have to worry about getting a cell signal to find my location. Especially when I'm hiking or cross country skiing.

[Robert]

I simply cited GPS as an example of "socialized" public infrastructure. The idea that it would have happened on its own without massive public investment is I think simply false. And even if some private company did manage to establish its own global network of GPS satellites the whole system would be so incredibly expensive that only corporate entities like airlines and maritime shipping companies would use it. And even then, probably not. They would more likely have just relied on the older land-based Loran-C system that was government run and free to use. GPS is a perfectly valid example of a socialized public infrastructure that the private sector would not have created on its own, or at least not in the useful 100% reliable and ubiquitous way that it works today. So in a very real sense, socialism and not capitalism gave us GPS.

Older cell phones did use cell towers for navigation. New cell phones all come with GPS chips integrated into their processors. What happens when you use Google maps is that your phone always knows your exact location due to the GPS chip but has to rely on the cell phone towers to download the map data in order to create the google map of your location. The Google map itself with all the streets and features comes from the internet not the GPS signal. You can check your actual location with your phone at any time anywhere in the world without a cell signal just by going to the compass app and your exact latitude and longitude will be displayed down to the exact meter. It always works whether or not you have a signal at all or have your cellular service turned on. It comes pre-installed on all Apple phones. I think on Android phones you need to download a compass or GPS app but the phone still knows where you are whether or not you have a cell signal.

You can avoid all of this by using google maps to download offline maps for whatever area you plan to be in. And then you can navigate using google maps without ever once getting a cell phone signal. I did this the last time we visited Costa Rica. I downloaded all of the google map data for all of Costa Rica and then used Google maps to seamlessly navigate back roads across the entire country while keeping my phone on airplane mode and without once turning on my cell phone data. Here in the west there are many remote rural and wilderness areas that are outside of cell phone range. So I always keep offline maps downloaded and up to date on my phone for everywhere I might ever drive in the Pacific Northwest and never have to worry about getting a cell signal to find my location. Especially when I'm hiking or cross country skiing.

All this and you did not discuss the topic. Not sure we needed a lecture on GPS.

[Ken]

I simply cited GPS as an example of "socialized" public infrastructure. The idea that it would have happened on its own without massive public investment is I think simply false. And even if some private company did manage to establish its own global network of GPS satellites the whole system would be so incredibly expensive that only corporate entities like airlines and maritime shipping companies would use it. And even then, probably not. They would more likely have just relied on the older land-based Loran-C system that was government run and free to use. GPS is a perfectly valid example of a socialized public infrastructure that the private sector would not have created on its own, or at least not in the useful 100% reliable and ubiquitous way that it works today. So in a very real sense, socialism and not capitalism gave us GPS.

Older cell phones did use cell towers for navigation. New cell phones all come with GPS chips integrated into their processors. What happens when you use Google maps is that your phone always knows your exact location due to the GPS chip but has to rely on the cell phone towers to download the map data in order to create the google map of your location. The Google map itself with all the streets and features comes from the internet not the GPS signal. You can check your actual location with your phone at any time anywhere in the world without a cell signal just by going to the compass app and your exact latitude and longitude will be displayed down to the exact meter. It always works whether or not you have a signal at all or have your cellular service turned on. It comes pre-installed on all Apple phones. I think on Android phones you need to download a compass or GPS app but the phone still knows where you are whether or not you have a cell signal.

You can avoid all of this by using google maps to download offline maps for whatever area you plan to be in. And then you can navigate using google maps without ever once getting a cell phone signal. I did this the last time we visited Costa Rica. I downloaded all of the google map data for all of Costa Rica and then used Google maps to seamlessly navigate back roads across the entire country while keeping my phone on airplane mode and without once turning on my cell phone data. Here in the west there are many remote rural and wilderness areas that are outside of cell phone range. So I always keep offline maps downloaded and up to date on my phone for everywhere I might ever drive in the Pacific Northwest and never have to worry about getting a cell signal to find my location. Especially when I'm hiking or cross country skiing.

All this and you did not discuss the topic. Not sure we needed a lecture on GPS.

I thought the topic was socialism vs capitalism.

GPS is a perfect example of socialism. It is a free public good that would not exist in a purely capitalist society.

[Robert]

GPS is a perfect example of socialism. It is a free public good that would not exist in a purely capitalist society.

And that would have been plenty to express. I do not think it is because it is a military infrastructure that was given public access in 1990. There are plenty of socialist examples. We should be discussing ideology and philosophy not details of GPS.

I hope you read the articles before posting. That was the socialist requirement to discuss in here.

[Ken]

GPS is a perfect example of socialism. It is a free public good that would not exist in a purely capitalist society.

And that would have been plenty to express. I do not think it is because it is a military infrastructure that was given public access in 1990. There are plenty of socialist examples. We should be discussing ideology and philosophy not details of GPS.

I hope you read the articles before posting. That was the socialist requirement to discuss in here.

Yes I read all the articles. I took issue with the author's example of Haiti as a capitalist society. It is not. It is probably more of a tribal society than anything else these days. And I wouldn't really call the Spanish conquest of the Americas the result of capitalism either. Those were really something akin to state-sponsored conquest. The East India Company would have been a better example of early capitalism.

[Josh]

GPS is a perfect example of socialism. It is a free public good that would not exist in a purely capitalist society.

And that would have been plenty to express. I do not think it is because it is a military infrastructure that was given public access in 1990. There are plenty of socialist examples. We should be discussing ideology and philosophy not details of GPS.

I hope you read the articles before posting. That was the socialist requirement to discuss in here.

Yes I read all the articles. I took issue with the author's example of Haiti as a capitalist society. It is not. It is probably more of a tribal society than anything else these days.

The author cited references for his evaluation of different societies, and yes, Haiti is extremely “capitalist” - people pay for everything there (but it’s often very cheap, like medical care is a fraction of the cost here).

I’m not sure what you mean by “tribal society” but Haiti does not have people organised into tribes living in jungles by themselves. It has millions of people including modern urban cities.

[Ken]

And that would have been plenty to express. I do not think it is because it is a military infrastructure that was given public access in 1990. There are plenty of socialist examples. We should be discussing ideology and philosophy not details of GPS.

I hope you read the articles before posting. That was the socialist requirement to discuss in here.

Yes I read all the articles. I took issue with the author's example of Haiti as a capitalist society. It is not. It is probably more of a tribal society than anything else these days.

The author cited references for his evaluation of different societies, and yes, Haiti is extremely “capitalist” - people pay for everything there (but it’s often very cheap, like medical care is a fraction of the cost here).

I’m not sure what you mean by “tribal society” but Haiti does not have people organised into tribes living in jungles by themselves. It has millions of people including modern urban cities.

Tribal in the sense that the gangs the control the country are really more akin to tribes than capitalist corporations. They carve out territories, have private armies, fight each other for territory, etc.