Socialism Vs. Capitalism

[Falco Knotwise]

I thought this was very well done. Long watch, but a lot of things explained and laid out well. What they point out as America and Americanism is more Capitalism(individualism) vs Communism(collectivism/Marxism).

Good video, Robert. I've been meaning to argue in defense of individualism as well. The whole western tradition that the individual is endowed with inalienable rights is certainly worth defending.

I do believe these rights are real, endowed by God. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, are all things protected by the 10 Commandments. Though shalt not murder (Life), though shalt not steal (Property & Pursuit of Happiness), and Liberty (The whole point of deliverance from Pharaoh, fulfilled in the New Testament)

How any Christian can deny these are REAL God-given rights and talk as though they're just made up fictions is beyond me.

There's PLENTY of people out there willing to say those rights have no basis in reality, there is no human nature, and therefore government can mold us all into any form they want to, and don't have to respect rights.

Apparently, there are plenty of people ready to part with those God-given rights, too, for a chance to take whatever crumbs Pharaoh is willing to give.

My criticism is only that in formulating these natural rights the moderns left out the other parts of natural rights ("duties") and this tends to lend itself to a kind of radical individualism and to "atomized" individuals which leads to people WANTING Pharaoh's crumbs.

The other parts of the Natural Rights are just as important, imo.

They want to acknowledge man's rights but not God's rights.

It's a whole package deal. We see the consequences of rejecting the other half.

P.S. Sorry for the glib language. A "covenant" is more than a "deal."

[Chris]

Socialism is both governmental and an economic viewpoint. Capitalism is really economics.

To combine, I'd appreciate more of Christian Anarchism of sorts. Utopia is a world of dedicated Christians serving each other in love. We could build roads and society in love for our fellow man.

Socialism (governmental) is not good. Neither is a Constitutional Republic (America is not a Democracy, it is a constitutional Republic).

Democide is the leading cause of mass murder of all humans. Governments are behind Democide.

I'd just love a world of dedicated Christians serving one another in love.

[Ken]

Socialism is both governmental and an economic viewpoint. Capitalism is really economics.

To combine, I'd appreciate more of Christian Anarchism of sorts. Utopia is a world of dedicated Christians serving each other in love. We could build roads and society in love for our fellow man.

Socialism (governmental) is not good. Neither is a Constitutional Republic (America is not a Democracy, it is a constitutional Republic).

Democide is the leading cause of mass murder of all humans. Governments are behind Democide.

I'd just love a world of dedicated Christians serving one another in love.

Capitalism is just as much a governmental system as socialism. Without the government you don't have capitalism, you have the chaos, anarchy, and the poverty of Haiti or Somalia.

Governments manage and enforce property rights, private property, and the transfer of property without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments manage and regulate capital markets (stock market and bond market) without which capitalism could not exist
Governments authorize and regulate the formation of corporations without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments authorize and regulate the finance and banking system without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments build infrastructure and regulate transportation without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments enforce all the laws and regulations related to the above, without which capitalism could not exist.

[RZehr]

Socialism is both governmental and an economic viewpoint. Capitalism is really economics.

To combine, I'd appreciate more of Christian Anarchism of sorts. Utopia is a world of dedicated Christians serving each other in love. We could build roads and society in love for our fellow man.

Socialism (governmental) is not good. Neither is a Constitutional Republic (America is not a Democracy, it is a constitutional Republic).

Democide is the leading cause of mass murder of all humans. Governments are behind Democide.

I'd just love a world of dedicated Christians serving one another in love.

Capitalism is just as much a governmental system as socialism. Without the government you don't have capitalism, you have the chaos, anarchy, and the poverty of Haiti or Somalia.

Governments manage and enforce property rights, private property, and the transfer of property without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments manage and regulate capital markets (stock market and bond market) without which capitalism could not exist
Governments authorize and regulate the formation of corporations without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments authorize and regulate the finance and banking system without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments build infrastructure and regulate transportation without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments enforce all the laws and regulations related to the above, without which capitalism could not exist.

I completely agree.

The reason many countries fail to prosper after they are “gifted” democracy by the USA, is because democracy is not exactly the same as capitalism. And even though these third world countries may be democratic, if they fail to have a competent government to play its role in the those things you listed, capitalism falls on its face. I mean, I guess socialism does too. Either system must have an efficient and law abiding government in order to work well.

[Chris]

Socialism is both governmental and an economic viewpoint. Capitalism is really economics.

To combine, I'd appreciate more of Christian Anarchism of sorts. Utopia is a world of dedicated Christians serving each other in love. We could build roads and society in love for our fellow man.

Socialism (governmental) is not good. Neither is a Constitutional Republic (America is not a Democracy, it is a constitutional Republic).

Democide is the leading cause of mass murder of all humans. Governments are behind Democide.

I'd just love a world of dedicated Christians serving one another in love.

Capitalism is just as much a governmental system as socialism. Without the government you don't have capitalism, you have the chaos, anarchy, and the poverty of Haiti or Somalia.

Governments manage and enforce property rights, private property, and the transfer of property without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments manage and regulate capital markets (stock market and bond market) without which capitalism could not exist
Governments authorize and regulate the formation of corporations without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments authorize and regulate the finance and banking system without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments build infrastructure and regulate transportation without which capitalism could not exist.
Governments enforce all the laws and regulations related to the above, without which capitalism could not exist.

I completely agree.

The reason many countries fail to prosper after they are “gifted” democracy by the USA, is because democracy is not exactly the same as capitalism. And even though these third world countries may be democratic, if they fail to have a competent government to play its role in the those things you listed, capitalism falls on its face. I mean, I guess socialism does too. Either system must have an efficient and law abiding government in order to work well.

My point was missed. In a Utopia world of Christians, we don't need a government.

By the way chaos and anarchy is the same thing.

This young man (for instance) lives ID less. (Titus is awesome by the way)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir3eJ1t13fk

I fear people are very deceived. We as Christians could accomplish all of the things the government is doing, without the government.
I'm speaking of a Christian Utopia. We don't need a government to build roads between Christian communities, to trade between Christians, or even for sound money. We just need our universal teaching to love & serve one another. Through that we can build an entire happily functioning society. That is the end goal. It's a Christian Utopia. Will it happen? That's up to us. It's more simple than you imagine.

Imagine this guy being a Christian surrounded by Christians who prop him up as well as their communities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LEoW81mUXU

We don't need a government if the world is full of believers.

[RZehr]

Sorry I wasn’t really focused on your post. I should have omitted it. I just kinda got on a roll with what Ken said.

[Ken]

My point was missed. In a Utopia world of Christians, we don't need a government.

No, your point was not missed.

There is no utopia world of Christians and never will be on this earth. Because we are all sinners both Christian and non-Christian. And it is contrary to Christian teaching to believe otherwise.

[Chris]

My point was missed. In a Utopia world of Christians, we don't need a government.

No, your point was not missed.

There is no utopia world of Christians and never will be on this earth. Because we are all sinners both Christian and non-Christian. And it is contrary to Christian teaching to believe otherwise.

I won't get into eschatology here as that would derail. Some Christians would argue that on Rev 20, but that wasn't my point. I was being hypothetical as I do not believe Christians "need" a government.

As a non-resistant Christian, how does the government do any service for me? What do I need from them? What did the government do for Jesus?

[Robert]

I was being hypothetical as I do not believe Christians "need" a government.

As a non-resistant Christian, how does the government do any service for me? What do I need from them?

There will always be a need for a governing body in this fallen world, but I agree that we Christians tend to lean way too much on big government. Rural communities can much easier work without much government. We learn to rely on each other instead of looking for some governing body to solve our problems.

It is harder in a city since fewer people produce food and have equipment to help each other, but there is more manufacturing and capital available in the cities. Those tractors were made somewhere that we help our neighbors with.

Anabaptists historically have shied away from government solutions and looked more to community solutions. Chris, I agree that we need to work more in that direction. It is the goal we should strive for, even if it is not obtainable with the return of Jesus.

[Ken]

I was being hypothetical as I do not believe Christians "need" a government.

As a non-resistant Christian, how does the government do any service for me? What do I need from them?

There will always be a need for a governing body in this fallen world, but I agree that we Christians tend to lean way too much on big government. Rural communities can much easier work without much government. We learn to rely on each other instead of looking for some governing body to solve our problems.

It is harder in a city since fewer people produce food and have equipment to help each other, but there is more manufacturing and capital available in the cities. Those tractors were made somewhere that we help our neighbors with.

Anabaptists historically have shied away from government solutions and looked more to community solutions. Chris, I agree that we need to work more in that direction. It is the goal we should strive for, even if it is not obtainable with the return of Jesus.

I would suggest that rural communities rely on government just as much as urban communities. That is certainly the case if you are measuring in terms of dollars spent per capita.

Roads, highways, bridges, snow removal, dams, irrigation projects, flood control, schools, fire and police protection, forest and range management, electrical service, internet service, rural hospitals and clinics, healthcare, etc. etc. The government provides, or has a major role in all of those things and many more. In fact, many rural economies are far more dependent on government spending than urban economies.