Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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Ernie
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Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by barnhart »

Thanks for posting this Ernie, I intended to read it earlier but these things slip away, so this was a second chance. I could quibble around the edges but I think the primary thesis is sound. The first and last sections are best, the middle is more of a history lesson.

I appreciate the hard lines drawn between economic systems and systems of governance, this is an are where idolatry is built for if the communists are atheist, then God logically is a capitalist.

I appreciate that he had drawn his definitions broad for discussion's sake, but many socialists would not focus on social ownership of production, rather on social intervention over the distribution of the profits because they generally don't want a completely centralized economy.
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Robert
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Robert »

I think there is a mistake being made at the start. The opposite of socialism is not capitalism, it is individualism. Socialists are often capitalist. They just think the individual can not control their own capitalism.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Robert »

I find him conflating cronyism with capitalism and not touching individualism at all.

I see Christianity though an individualism lens. We can only become saved by our individual choice. Once we choose to follow Jesus, we are called to voluntarily give and provide for the common need. It is not FORCED on us. Socialism is, ultimately, forced on the society because people grow tired of working and getting little out of the efforts while others do less and get more.

I find Mike's perspective to be a small window of experiences to Bolivia and not looking at the overall foundations. He misses the entire voluntary function of Christian living and giving.

Capitalism was a name projected onto the system of economy based on individualism to paint it as a bunch of greedy people by socialists. It distorts the core foundation of individualism. Individualism is not an economic system, but a philosophy and concept that the individual should be able to make their own choices instead of the governing bodies. Individualism is basically self determination. Yes, there needs to be structures and laws in place that keep greedy people from taking away another's right for self determination. There needs to be laws to keep one person's choices from taking away another's ability to self determine. Evil does exist and a governing body is needed to provide security for the masses. Haiti and Bolivia has done little of that. The US is loosing that of late too.

The US has also tampered with other country's politics because of cronyism. The government forcing an individual to do something because of the greed of another. This is not individualism, but another form of socialism.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by joshuabgood »

Like Harlan said, as a whole, very good work. Some would say the Spanish were more mercantile and imperial than capitalistic, however, I think it is immaterial and the author's point stands either way.

The believer in capitalism or communism will always argue, it isn't that the model is problematic, it is that it hasn't been implemented right. They will say that if it was "done right" it will work. Thing is, it never is.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Ken »

One has to be pretty careful about definitions in these sorts of discussions. I found the whole discussion of Haiti and Bolivia to be rather simplistic.

Capitalism isn't just free enterprise or private ownership. Societies going back to the dawn of time have had those characteristics. Capitalism is really more of a 17th or 18th century invention in which financial innovations like the invention of the corporation and other legal structures that made it possible for groups of people to accumulate capital and deploy capital as a means to control and acquire means of production. Prior to that time there was wealth in society and as well as free markets and private ownership but economies were really more controlled by hereditary monarchs and nobility as well as the church, rather than accumulations of capital. The means of production in feudal Europe was largely the land which was controlled by nobility and aristocrats through inheritances (the oldest son inherits the estate) and not generally subject to sale on the open market. The intent was more to preserve the aristocracy and political control rather than most efficiently build wealth.

By that definition, Haiti is really not a capitalist society, it is really more of an anarchy or failed state. People cannot effectively deploy capital in Haiti to any productive use because the legal and social structures to make that possible don't exist. There might be huge unregulated markets in Haiti but it isn't capitalist. Criminal gangs run the the place, not capital.

In any event, no modern and prosperous country is completely capitalist or socialist.

In the US, for example, we have a complicated blend.

Take health care, which represents about 1/5th of the entire US economy. We have the following different systems operating simultaneously:
  • We have a sector with private ownership of both the health insurance sector and the health care provider sector. That is all of us who have private insurance or privately pay for medical care at private hospitals and clinics.
  • We have a sector with public ownership of the health insurance sector but with private ownership of the health care provider networks. That is everyone who is on Medicare or Medicaid but uses their Medicare or Medicaid cards to obtain care from private hospitals and clinics.
  • We also have a sector with public ownership of both the insurance sector and the provider sector. That is the VA health care system as well as all the public clinics and hospitals around the country that largely take Medicare and Medicaid patients.
  • We also have both private and public investment in medical research and science because it is in the public interest to do so and simply relying on private investment and the profit motive to direct research efforts would leave massive gaps. Without public funding there would be no incentive to ever investigate cures for rare diseases, for example
Why do we do that? Because of "market failures". The free market does not effectively distribute health care to the poor or elderly. No insurance company is going to insure a 75 year old patient with multiple chronic health issues. Nor is the private sector going to insure those in poverty or wounded and disabled veterans. So the government has to step in.

Education is a similarly large component of the economy. But we have a complicated system of private for-profit "capitalist" schools and universities, private non-profit schools and universities (often owned by religious institutions not capitalists) and the largest sector by far is public schools and universities. Why do we do this? Because without public subsidy of the education sector large portions of the population would remain uneducated and that would greatly diminish the wealth and productivity of the nation. It would also massively increase crime and social dysfunction if large portions of the population lacked the skills for productive employment. That is essentially what you have in countries like Haiti. No "capitalist" can drop a semi-conductor plant or software engineering firm into rural Haiti because the workforce to operate it simply does not exist. Not to mention all the structures to protect and preserve that investment also do not exist.

Health care and education are just two examples of where free market failures make public investment and regulation necessary. Or "socialism" if you want to call public insurance like Medicare and public schools and universities "socialist"

There are endless examples of other sectors of the economy where free market failures necessitate public investment. Transportation is an example. We have public roads and public airports. We have public infrastructure all along our coastlines to aid in maritime navigation from the Coast Guard to public canals and harbors. Our GPS system which the entire transportation sector relies on is entirely government run or "socialist".

The environment is another area where public intervention is necessary to prevent private interests from spoiling our air, water, and lands. In the 19th Century private corporations just dumped their waste into our lakes and rivers and filled our skies with their pollution. The air in cities like Pittsburgh and Cleveland was unbreathable and polluted rivers were catching on fire. It took government regulation to end that. Capitalism wasn't going to do it on its own.

In all productive modern societies you have a blend of both private and public investment. You have private investment and ownership of the sectors where that works best like farming. And you have public ownership where that is necessary and most effective such as healthcare, education, transportation, and environmental protection.
Last edited by Ken on Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Robert »

Ken wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:50 pm Capitalism isn't just free enterprise or private ownership. Societies going back to the dawn of time have had those characteristics. Capitalism is really more of a 17th or 18th century invention in which financial innovations like the invention of the corporation and other legal structures that made it possible for groups of people to accumulate capital and deploy capital as a means to control and acquire means of production. Prior to that time there was wealth in society and as well as free markets and private ownership but economies were really more controlled by hereditary monarchs and nobility as well as the church, rather than accumulations of capital. The means of production in feudal Europe was largely the land which was controlled by nobility and aristocrats through inheritances (the oldest son inherits the estate) and not generally subject to sale on the open market. The intent was more to preserve the aristocracy and political control rather than most efficiently build wealth.

By that definition, Haiti is really not a capitalist society, it is really more of an anarchy or failed state. People cannot effectively deploy capital in Haiti to any productive use because the legal and social structures to make that possible don't exist. There might be huge unregulated markets in Haiti but it isn't capitalist. Criminal gangs run the the place, not capital.

In any event, no modern and prosperous country is completely capitalist or socialist.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Robert »

Ken wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:50 pm Our GPS system which the entire transportation sector relies on is entirely government run or "socialist".
This is because for years government regulation restricted private launches of rockets. Soon, Skylink will dwarf the GPS system.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Ken »

Robert wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:14 pm
Ken wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:50 pm Our GPS system which the entire transportation sector relies on is entirely government run or "socialist".
This is because for years government regulation restricted private launches of rockets. Soon, Skylink will dwarf the GPS system.
They are separate things. Starlink is a network of communication satellites. You pay for the data that you use just like with a cell phone. Basically they are just cell phone towers in orbit.

GPS is a separate system of geosynchronous satellite beacons that generate signals used for geolocation. They generate constant one-way signals used by every GPS device. The reason it is public is because there is no logical way to monetize it because GPS devices are only one-way communication devices. They receive the GPS signal but don't send anything back. If GPS devices had to be 2-way devices in order to "handshake" with GPS satellites (like Starlink ) they would be much larger and more expensive devices and burn up lots of batteries. Starlink stations have large dish antennas. You can't carry them around in your pocket and you couldn't have GPS in a cell phone. Theoretically the government could pay private companies to launch GPS satellites and private companies to build them (in fact they already do). But there isn't a profit motive to installing and maintaining GPS satellites. They function as public infrastructure like public highways or street signs.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Josh »

Robert wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:14 pm
Ken wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:50 pm Our GPS system which the entire transportation sector relies on is entirely government run or "socialist".
This is because for years government regulation restricted private launches of rockets. Soon, Skylink will dwarf the GPS system.
And GPS was created for military ends.

If you want to see a socialist state, look no further than the U.S. military.
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