Socialism Vs. Capitalism

[justme]

I live in a Christian community with a common purse, and then am part of a larger Christian church that shares and bears one another’s burdens.

I don’t know anything about “Holdermans”. Holdemans don’t necessarily have a common purse but do have voluntary mutual aid.

now i'm really confused.
i understood you to say that you live in a community w a common purse. and i understood that to mean that you are part of that common purse. i took that to mean that the holdemans (i apologize for the spelling earlier, i spelled it as is pronounced here), practice a common purse.
and then you say, that they don't necessarily have a common purse.

was i wrong in how i understood your first statement?

[Chris]

I live in a Christian community with a common purse, and then am part of a larger Christian church that shares and bears one another’s burdens.

I don’t know anything about “Holdermans”. Holdemans don’t necessarily have a common purse but do have voluntary mutual aid.

now i'm really confused.
i understood you to say that you live in a community w a common purse. and i understood that to mean that you are part of that common purse. i took that to mean that the holdemans (i apologize for the spelling earlier, i spelled it as is pronounced here), practice a common purse.
and then you say, that they don't necessarily have a common purse.

was i wrong in how i understood your first statement?

This is what I was wondering. A lot of churches have a "help fund" or similar. People build up the fund to help situations out in the church. I understood the "common purse" to mean everybody deposits into a bank what they earn, and the church divvies out an even pay to all (or something similar). Either that or it would have to look like Hutterite.

A help account is not exactly socialism. It's more like a voluntary donation within a group.

[Ken]

So is membership in an HOA. You can choose not to live in that community, many people do. But once you do voluntarily join, you agree to follow the community rules, same as with any church. Or at least any church that has rules and standards for membership and the will excommunicate or remove recalcitrant members. I recall a LOT of discussion here on this forum about "church discipline".

An HOA and a monastery are not remotely similar.

I was just curious how you come up with the amounts each person pays. Whether it is a fixed amount where everyone pays the same amount (like an HOA), a fixed percentage like a tithe, or something more variable and voluntary.

Monks in a monastery don’t pay anything. They do perform work to support the monastery as a whole. An example is the sisters at a nearby monastery who bake bread and conduct soup sales.

Who said anything about monks? I understood you to be talking about something you participate in through your Holdeman Church. I was just curious about the details.

[Josh]

I live in a Christian community with a common purse, and then am part of a larger Christian church that shares and bears one another’s burdens.

I don’t know anything about “Holdermans”. Holdemans don’t necessarily have a common purse but do have voluntary mutual aid.

now i'm really confused.
i understood you to say that you live in a community w a common purse. and i understood that to mean that you are part of that common purse. i took that to mean that the holdemans (i apologize for the spelling earlier, i spelled it as is pronounced here), practice a common purse.
and then you say, that they don't necessarily have a common purse.

was i wrong in how i understood your first statement?

I’m a member at a Holdeman church. (“Holderman” is a mispronunciation that other plain people seen to do; I have never encountered anyone within our circles who pronounces it that way. John Holdeman’s name was John Holdeman. We would prefer to be known as Christians or Mennonites, but other people insist on calling us Holdemans or Holdermans.) Our church doesn’t mandate a particular type of economic or family arrangement. The common purse I am part of is all Holdeman church members however. The rest of my church finds how we do things a bit peculiar and views it as more of a family farm.

Other people within our circles doing a similar arrangement have been in Brazil and, in times past, in Mexico, where multiple families pool their resources because otherwise nobody had enough resources to survive on their own.

[Josh]

This is what I was wondering. A lot of churches have a "help fund" or similar. People build up the fund to help situations out in the church. I understood the "common purse" to mean everybody deposits into a bank what they earn, and the church divvies out an even pay to all (or something similar). Either that or it would have to look like Hutterite.

A help account is not exactly socialism. It's more like a voluntary donation within a group.

Holdemans don’t mandate a common purse and I’m not sure why there is an assumption that’s what I’m part of.

In a Christian community nobody “deposits into a bank what they earn”; the members of the community operate a business or farm together, much like any other business. Unlike a business, there are no pay checks or “divvying out even pay”. The community directly pays everyone’s living expenses.

[Josh]

Who said anything about monks? I understood you to be talking about something you participate in through your Holdeman Church. I was just curious about the details.

I never said a word about the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite or the Holdemans, but it seems you, jm, and Chris all made that assumption.

For some odd reason you thought a Christian common purse community is comparable to an HOA. It is not. It is identical to a monastery.

To be in an HOA someone would buy property (or perhaps lease it). To join a Christian community or a monastery, one does not buy property. That is a rather stark difference. HOAs are organised for the benefit of property owners. Monasteries and other religious communities are organised for the benefit of the needy and for the spiritual convictions of the religious members. An HOA is typically a 501(c)(4). A residential religious association could not be a 501(c)(4). It is much closer in function to a church than an HOA.

[Ken]

I never said a word about the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite or the Holdemans, but it seems you, jm, and Chris all made that assumption.

For some odd reason you thought a Christian common purse community is comparable to an HOA. It is not. It is identical to a monastery.

These are your words right here:

I live in a Christian community with a common purse, and then am part of a larger Christian church that shares and bears one another’s burdens.

None of us would ever use the word “socialist” to describe ourselves. Indeed, allowance for private ownership and even individual ownership of means of production is important to us. Means of production that are shared with each other or shared with the needy are done so voluntarily.

We are just asking what exactly you are talking about here since you brought it up. If you aren't talking about Holdemans then what are you talking about? Are you living in a monastery on the side?

[Josh]

I never said a word about the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite or the Holdemans, but it seems you, jm, and Chris all made that assumption.

For some odd reason you thought a Christian common purse community is comparable to an HOA. It is not. It is identical to a monastery.

These are your words right here:

I live in a Christian community with a common purse, and then am part of a larger Christian church that shares and bears one another’s burdens.

None of us would ever use the word “socialist” to describe ourselves. Indeed, allowance for private ownership and even individual ownership of means of production is important to us. Means of production that are shared with each other or shared with the needy are done so voluntarily.

We are just asking what exactly you are talking about here since you brought it up. If you aren't talking about Holdemans then what are you talking about? Are you living in a monastery on the side?

And I never said the Holdemans practice a common purse as a rule. It is possible to be part of a church and also part of a common purse community; Reba Place is and Plow Creek was part of MC USA but MC USA as a rule is not a common purse community.

Ken, this is a bit ridiculous. You’re asking rather probing personal questions and then challenging what I say as if I somehow said something else. It doesn’t really make me want to share lots of details with you in a public forum. I don’t really want to argue with you that what I’ve dedicated my life and my family to is not a Homeowner’s Association.

The other thread is open that is for discussion of Christian communities, common purses, and so on.

[Bootstrap]

I wonder if we can get back to discussing the subject. Several of us, including me, were confused by the way Josh described this earlier. He has clarified that Holdemans do not have a common purse. I think that's been clarified now.

Is it helpful to define a term like:

* Socialism (Religious Communities) or ...
* Socialism (Common purse)

Or does that just muddy things?

A common purse is not the same thing as the means of production - but it does involve the means of distribution, and some places with a common purse also have their own stores and their own methods that determine how people obtain food and other goods.

And there are some places like the Bruderhof that have their own factories as well as a common purse. I spent a long weekend in a Creative Playthings factory once at such a community ...

[Josh]

I started a thread to discuss that. I have never met people in Christian communities with a common purse or all things in common who describe themselves as “socialists” so I don’t think that’s a helpful term at all.

The thread is here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5742

I’d prefer if the discussion could move over there, but for some reason everyone else decided to keep posting in this thread.