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Christianity's Surprise
A Sure and Certain Hope
by E. Kavin Rowe

I just finished reading this 100 page book. A good read. Rowe talks about how the early church changed the word through
1. It's telling of the "Story of Everything"
2. Its understanding of "The Human"
3. Its founding of "Institutions"

Very engaging book for anyone feeling a bit depressed or pessimistic about the ability of Christianity and the church to make much headway in the 21st century. A few bones to spit out here and there, that come from an Augustinian view of the church, but overall, a very worthwhile read. I was much encouraged.

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/ ... s-surprise

Just for information: How would you explain "Augustinian view" in this context?
In European tradition, Augustinianism was mostly understood as the opposite of "Pelagianism" in matters of free will and human's ability to take part in his salvation. Problems which are eternal, but which you probably didn't want to touch.
My feeling is that you use "Augustinian" for the theological justification of "Constantinian" practice, i.e. uncritical collaboration of the Church with the State.

I think Christianity is actually growing by leaps and bounds around the world. Just not in the ways that a lot of educated wealthy Europeans and North Americans think it should be growing. It is indigenous Pentecostal churches and other home-grown groups that are growing fast and they aren't paying any attention to things like whether they are "Augustinian" or even know what that means.

PetrChelcicky wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:59 am Just for information: How would you explain "Augustinian view" in this context?
In European tradition, Augustinianism was mostly understood as the opposite of "Pelagianism" in matters of free will and human's ability to take part in his salvation. Problems which are eternal, but which you probably didn't want to touch.
My feeling is that you use "Augustinian" for the theological justification of "Constantinian" practice, i.e. uncritical collaboration of the Church with the State.

https://churchplantersforum.org/wp-cont ... eekers.pdf

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:18 pm I think Christianity is actually growing by leaps and bounds around the world. Just not in the ways that a lot of educated wealthy Europeans and North Americans think it should be growing. It is indigenous Pentecostal churches and other home-grown groups that are growing fast and they aren't paying any attention to things like whether they are "Augustinian" or even know what that means.

Is it actually “growth” to have people switch from attending Catholic mass to Pentecostal church services?

Whether you like it or not, virtually every Pentecostal church’s orientation is “Augustinian” or Constantinian. For example, Bolsanaro’s rise to power in Brazil comes largely from the strong support he gets from the emerging evangelical-Pentecostal bloc in Brazil.

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:28 pm

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:18 pm I think Christianity is actually growing by leaps and bounds around the world. Just not in the ways that a lot of educated wealthy Europeans and North Americans think it should be growing. It is indigenous Pentecostal churches and other home-grown groups that are growing fast and they aren't paying any attention to things like whether they are "Augustinian" or even know what that means.

Is it actually “growth” to have people switch from attending Catholic mass to Pentecostal church services?

Whether you like it or not, virtually every Pentecostal church’s orientation is “Augustinian” or Constantinian. For example, Bolsanaro’s rise to power in Brazil comes largely from the strong support he gets from the emerging evangelical-Pentecostal bloc in Brazil.

In my experience, much of Latin America was only nominally Catholic in that it was the culture. But few other than older women ever actually attended mass or participated in Church. Most Pentecostal churches and other protestant denominations are taking people who were completely disengaged from religion even though they might have been born Catholic, and turning them into active congregants.

I'm not saying that Pentecostals aren't Augustinian. I'm saying that isn't a distinction they actually ever make. Your average Brazilian Pentecostal would not even know what you are talking about. For them religion is personal and immediate, and early Christian historical arguments are not relevant.

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:38 pmIn my experience, much of Latin America was only nominally Catholic in that it was the culture. But few other than older women ever actually attended mass or participated in Church. Most Pentecostal churches and other protestant denominations are taking people who were completely disengaged from religion even though they might have been born Catholic, and turning them into active congregants.

You say "personal and immediate" like that is a good thing.

I'm not saying that Pentecostals aren't Augustinian. I'm saying that isn't a distinction they actually ever make. Your average Brazilian Pentecostal would not even know what you are talking about. For them religion is personal and immediate, and early Christian historical arguments are not relevant.

I think that converting people to right-wing evangelicalism is not really an entirely wholesome thing, particularly when it's associated with the rise of right-wing politicians who ride that wave of popularity. That's not what Christianity and following Jesus should be about.

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:43 pm

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:38 pmIn my experience, much of Latin America was only nominally Catholic in that it was the culture. But few other than older women ever actually attended mass or participated in Church. Most Pentecostal churches and other protestant denominations are taking people who were completely disengaged from religion even though they might have been born Catholic, and turning them into active congregants.

You say "personal and immediate" like that is a good thing.

I'm not saying that Pentecostals aren't Augustinian. I'm saying that isn't a distinction they actually ever make. Your average Brazilian Pentecostal would not even know what you are talking about. For them religion is personal and immediate, and early Christian historical arguments are not relevant.

I think that converting people to right-wing evangelicalism is not really an entirely wholesome thing, particularly when it's associated with the rise of right-wing politicians who ride that wave of popularity. That's not what Christianity and following Jesus should be about.

I worked in Guatemala for about 3 years and also did shorter stints in Honduras, Costa Rica, and Brazil back in the 1980s and 1990s. I rarely saw men and few young people attending Catholic mass. The churches were often near empty except for high holy days like Christmas Eve and Semana Santa. When Pentecostal churches started sweeping through (and it was a completely indigenous movement, not missionary based at all) it looked extremely different. You would see these little Pentecostal churches scattered about that were packed to the rim with families and lots of men. Yes, there was speaking in tongues and lots of shouting and standing and all that emotion. There was one directly behind my house and they would go for hours and hours.

But if you talked to women, many of them were all for it because for the first time ever their men were cleaning up their act, stopping the drinking, drunkenness and abuse, and starting to live healthy family lives. This was in Mayan communities where alcoholism was a special scourge. And Pentecostal churches were running things almost like AA meetings, demanding and expecting accountability from each other. Something the Catholic church with its hierarchal gulf between clergy and laity never touched on.

Whether or not you agree with the theology. And I frankly don't. The home-grown Pentecostal evangelicals were filling an enormous hole and serving an unmet social and spiritual need in those communities. So brushing it off as just "converting other Christians" is utterly inaccurate. It wouldn't be spreading like wildfire across the developing world if it wasn't meeting unmet social and spiritual needs.