Anabaptist Viewpoint

[Soloist]

Moderate conservative land? What about the 2 Trump Amish buggy parades in Fredericksburg OH in 2020? Granted there were few buggies bur I did see obvious Mennos dressed plain with head coverings among the street lined supporters in the videos I saw

It would seem to me we are a lot closer to Munster then we as a group would like to be.

Anabaptist, conservative Anabaptist, Amish, Mennonite, Conservative Mennonite, Old Order Mennonite, none of these groups are unified on doctrine, politics, even dare I say, non-resistance.
When we step back, this is as it was and will remain as it is.

Supporting Trump is no different then supporting Biden. Both men join your hands to evil. Sure you can argue that you join your hand to the lesser of the two evils, but it’s still evil.
These people have their king and their kingdom already. Makes perfect sense that they would “fight” for their king.

What is conservative? What is liberal? Any one of these groups could be described by individual traits in these two.
I could give a list of what I deem the perfect church and to truly be conservative, but my idea of conservative is to follow the example Jesus set before us and His apostles. Following that very distortable statement, I would join hands with those who would hold to such as the Schleitheim Confession saying on these things are these two points

IV. We are agreed (as follows) on separation: A separation shall be made from the evil and from the wickedness which the devil planted in the world; in this manner, simply that we shall not have fellowship with them (the wicked) and not run with them in the multitude of their abominations. This is the way it is: Since all who do not walk in the obedience of faith, and have not united themselves with God so that they wish to do His will, are a great abomination before God, it is not possible for anything to grow or issue from them except abominable things. For truly all creatures are in but two classes, good and bad, believing and unbelieving, darkness and light, the world and those who (have come) out of the world, God's temple and idols, Christ and Belial; and none can have part with the other.

To us then the command of the Lord is clear when He calls upon us to be separate from the evil and thus He will be our God and we shall be His sons and daughters.

He further admonishes us to withdraw from Babylon and earthly Egypt that we may not be partakers of the pain and suffering which the Lord will bring upon them.

From this we should learn that everything which is not united with our God and Christ cannot be other than an abomination which we should shun and flee from. By this is meant all Catholic and Protestant works and church services, meetings and church attendance, drinking houses, civic affairs, the oaths sworn in unbelief and other things of that kind, which are highly regarded by the world and yet are carried on in flat contradiction to the command of God, in accordance with all the unrighteousness which is in the world. From all these things we shall be separated and have no part with them for they are nothing but an abomination, and they are the cause of our being hated before our Christ Jesus, Who has set us free from the slavery of the flesh and fitted us for the service of God through the Spirit Whom He has given us.

Therefore there will also unquestionably fall from us the unchristian, devilish weapons of force - such as sword, armor and the like, and all their use (either) for friends or against one's enemies - by virtue of the Word of Christ. Resist not (him that is) evil

Finally it will be observed that it is not appropriate for a Christian to serve as a magistrate because of these points: The government magistracy is according to the flesh, but the Christian's is according to the Spirit; their houses and dwelling remain in this world, but the Christian's are in heaven; their citizenship is in this world, but the Christian's citizenship is in heaven; the weapons of their conflict and war are carnal and against the flesh only, but the Christian's weapons are spiritual, against the fortification of the devil. The worldlings are armed with steel and iron, but the Christians are armed with the armor of God, with truth, righteousness, peace, faith, salvation and the Word of God. In brief, as in the mind of God toward us, so shall the mind of the members of the body of Christ be through Him in all things, that there may be no schism in the body through which it would be destroyed. For every kingdom divided against itself will be destroyed. Now since Christ is as it is written of Him, His members must also be the same, that His body may remain complete and united to its own advancement and upbuilding.

[Ernie]

After reading that article on social media I have to agree with Josh. 1, I recognize some of the names and am personally knowledgeable about 1 of them.
2, the arguments used against are expressed as ignorant and uneducated.
3, terms are being changed to try and equate 1 action (such as email) with facebook.

The internet has profoundly changed the church and those who took and stance changed little, those who accepted it changed dramatically.

This is reflecting what I saw at Mrs Smucker’s church. A bunch of “let us be accountable and thoughtful about our internet/social media use.” She might be perfectly fine at this, but this stance, along with several other compromises, have failed their church.

It's hard to put into words how awful that document is. Of course, I'm not sure why anyone would really care what moderate-conservatives have to say about any kind of cultural change or shift like this... since moderates always eventually accept the change. One might as well ask a fox about strategies to avoid having one's henhouse continually raided. The fox would answer, "What is needed is each hen to pray and seek the Lord and to trust God to keep the henhouse safe from foxes. But we cannot imagine for a minute that putting up a fence or getting a guard dog is the right solution. And the farmer has no authority to fence in the hens, anyway. They have a right to go roam the lawn in the middle of the night if they want to."

This document does serve a useful purpose: it demonstrates how moderate conservatives approach these issues and think about them. Of course, the reality is that most moderate conservatives are busy getting on social media and sharing news clips about the election, conspiracy theories, videos of themselves hunting and pictures of their gun collection, or promoting the latest multi-level marketing fad they got into. Back when I had social media, I almost never saw a worthwhile use of social media from conservative Anabaptists. But I sure saw plenty of questionable or outright un-Christian uses. The moderate conservative cannot bear to stop and think that, perhaps, just perhaps, those who are more conservative than he is might actually be right about something.

Then he'll pack up the Honda Odyssey (or who am I kidding, more like a Yukon) and head to one of the children's place for Thanksgiving, bemoaning the fact that his children left for a less-conservative church and the fact the grandchildren are in completely worldly clothes and are glued to their iPads, watching videos. How did this happen?

I agree with both of you that Moderate-conservatives and Progressive-conservatives do a lot of talk, but not much "eye-plucking or hand-chopping" when it comes to devices and social media platforms.  
I did skim the article again and did not see the authors putting those who place restrictions on certain types of social media in a bad light. But granted, they did not encourage such restrictions.

However, their target audience is churches who will probably never place restrictions on certain media platforms, and so the goal is to help produce as many "accountable and thoughtful" people as possible. I think their article may end up helping to salvage a few people.

Josh, you imply that you used to have social media but don't at this point. So how is MN different from "social media" from your point of view? The article references MennoDiscuss as a social media platform.

I know a dad who thinks MN was the single biggest factor for his child's apostasy. Yet, people who don't like the viewpoint article, continue to use Mennonet. Mennonet is something that some churches ban. Wouldn't a logical response of those who don't like the viewpoint article be to discontinue reading Mennonet?

Something else to consider...
Some churches do not allow email. But then people send faxes of articles that support Israel or Russia or Ukraine or some political persuasion.
While "no email" of "no fax" does give the church a bit more control, members still make photo copies of things and pass them around.

So I see the technology discussion on a scale. At one end of the scale, you have churches with no electronic devices. At the other end of the scale you have churches who think they can handle all technology without getting burnt. In the middle you have churches who have various restrictions and accountability measures in place.

As I see it...

Some in churches with no devices are going to pick up a magazine at the doctor's office or pick up a Conservative Anabaptist periodical that will forever change their life. But most in these churches may open the same magazines/periodicals and will not get sucked in. They will continue living as Old Orders with an Old Order worldview.

Those who do well with the "middle" will have a similar result as the Old Orders. Those who don't do well with the middle will have similar results to those who think they can handle any technology.

And those that think they can handle all technology will have a high attrition rate.

[Soloist]

I agree with both of you that Moderate-conservatives and Progressive-conservatives do a lot of talk, but not much "eye-plucking or hand-chopping" when it comes to devices and social media platforms.  
I did skim the article again and did not see the authors putting those who place restrictions on certain types of social media in a bad light. But granted, they did not encourage such restrictions.

I would agree that the intermediate and more conservative is not their target.

Josh, you imply that you used to have social media but don't at this point. So how is MN different from "social media" from your point of view? The article references MennoDiscuss as a social media platform.

I know a dad who thinks MN was the single biggest factor for his child's apostasy. Yet, people who don't like the viewpoint article, continue to use Mennonet. Mennonet is something that some churches ban. Wouldn't a logical response of those who don't like the viewpoint article be to discontinue reading Mennonet?

I think it’s a reasonable question and I think over the years we’ve seen intermediate to ultra conservatives leave Mennonet either for conscience sake or standards. I was discouraged to use Menno at my Western Fellowship church and partly I continued due to excessive time with nothing to do and the social aspect. I can’t say it’s the most redeeming use of my time and I guess I continue because I’m lonely and don’t get the fellowship I desire. Working a nursing job with one non-verbal patient and schedule that doesn’t mesh well with trade/farming jobs doesn’t help of course but it would be very difficult to change that at this point and pay the bills.
Ultimately, the church isn’t for fellowship in my experience, it’s a place to come on Sunday. Family is your fellowship and unless you have several relatives near by, you suffer.

I would say Ernie that you reflect the same view I would but we come out on different points on the scale.
I know that father too and I respect him although there is much we disagree on, little of it is substantial.

[AndersonD]

After reading that article on social media I have to agree with Josh. 1, I recognize some of the names and am personally knowledgeable about 1 of them.
2, the arguments used against are expressed as ignorant and uneducated.
3, terms are being changed to try and equate 1 action (such as email) with facebook.

The internet has profoundly changed the church and those who took and stance changed little, those who accepted it changed dramatically.

This is reflecting what I saw at Mrs Smucker’s church. A bunch of “let us be accountable and thoughtful about our internet/social media use.” She might be perfectly fine at this, but this stance, along with several other compromises, have failed their church.

It's hard to put into words how awful that document is. Of course, I'm not sure why anyone would really care what moderate-conservatives have to say about any kind of cultural change or shift like this... since moderates always eventually accept the change. One might as well ask a fox about strategies to avoid having one's henhouse continually raided. The fox would answer, "What is needed is each hen to pray and seek the Lord and to trust God to keep the henhouse safe from foxes. But we cannot imagine for a minute that putting up a fence or getting a guard dog is the right solution. And the farmer has no authority to fence in the hens, anyway. They have a right to go roam the lawn in the middle of the night if they want to."

This document does serve a useful purpose: it demonstrates how moderate conservatives approach these issues and think about them. Of course, the reality is that most moderate conservatives are busy getting on social media and sharing news clips about the election, conspiracy theories, videos of themselves hunting and pictures of their gun collection, or promoting the latest multi-level marketing fad they got into. Back when I had social media, I almost never saw a worthwhile use of social media from conservative Anabaptists. But I sure saw plenty of questionable or outright un-Christian uses. The moderate conservative cannot bear to stop and think that, perhaps, just perhaps, those who are more conservative than he is might actually be right about something.

Then he'll pack up the Honda Odyssey (or who am I kidding, more like a Yukon) and head to one of the children's place for Thanksgiving, bemoaning the fact that his children left for a less-conservative church and the fact the grandchildren are in completely worldly clothes and are glued to their iPads, watching videos. How did this happen?

Josh, you imply that you used to have social media but don't at this point. So how is MN different from "social media" from your point of view? The article references MennoDiscuss as a social media platform.

Holdeman's are on FB and other social media. Sort of like Gary Miller's book titled "The Coming Tech Tsunami"... heard so much preaching from that book when I was younger and many of us wished to tell the preachers that the author most likely has a smart phone in his pocket.

[Josh]

I am not seeing this kind of stuff, at least not in my district. However one of the KMF churches just had a split over these sort of issues, with most of the church leaving. Leadership does try to hold the line, because drift, once it gets started is hard to stop.

My experience with Keystone folks (at Tidings of Peace) was I was surprised at how much less of this nonsense there was than at my moderate-conservative church, where the old guys still wore plain coats and they still wore kapps to church on Sunday, yet were frankly more worldly than Keystone people during the week.

[Josh]

Moderate conservative land? What about the 2 Trump Amish buggy parades in Fredericksburg OH in 2020? Granted there were few buggies bur I did see obvious Mennos dressed plain with head coverings among the street lined supporters in the videos I saw

Valerie, those Mennos were probably moderate conservatives as well - that’s exactly what I’m talking about.

Whereas Amish overwhelmingly wouldn’t be involved in a parade like that and any that I have talked to about it were very embarrassed and took pains to point out the people that did it were youth, presumably wild and/or not church members yet.

This is different than a church’s song leader with a Trump campaign bumper sticker in the parking lot on Sunday.

[Josh]

Holdeman's are on FB and other social media. Sort of like Gary Miller's book titled "The Coming Tech Tsunami"... heard so much preaching from that book when I was younger and many of us wished to tell the preachers that the author most likely has a smart phone in his pocket.

They actually aren’t on FB except for “business purposes”. Of course, some people are rebellious and get on it for personal purposes. Of course, WhatsApp is transforming into a social media platform and Holdemans seem powerless to resist using it, despite a recent admonition from the technology committee to stop using it.

Gary Miller’s book has done great harm and I have yet to see it doing any good. It takes the position that technology can cause all these issues, etc etc, then at the end encourages you to just keep using it anyway. One Amish person told me he really wished Amish people would quit reading Gary Miller books, because after they do they think more technology might actually be a good thing, and this particular person didn’t want to see Amish turn into moderate conservatives.

[Josh]

However, their target audience is churches who will probably never place restrictions on certain media platforms, and so the goal is to help produce as many "accountable and thoughtful" people as possible. I think their article may end up helping to salvage a few people.

Part of my view is their target audience needs to renounce their apostasy and recognise their drift, speak in repentance to the more conservative groups they left or split from and have gathered members from, and also apologise to more liberal groups that criticised heavily yet are rapidly becoming.

Josh, you imply that you used to have social media but don't at this point. So how is MN different from "social media" from your point of view? The article references MennoDiscuss as a social media platform.

MD doesn’t exist, which is a good example of how these kinds of articles become laughably out of date.

MennoNet isn’t social media. MennoNet is a discussion forum, based on a nearly stock build of phpBB which predates “social media”. Social media revolves around sharing media like pictures, videos, and songs; discussion forums revolve around sharing text.

I know a dad who thinks MN was the single biggest factor for his child's apostasy. Yet, people who don't like the viewpoint article, continue to use Mennonet. Mennonet is something that some churches ban. Wouldn't a logical response of those who don't like the viewpoint article be to discontinue reading Mennonet?

I would not be surprised if MN has played a part in such apostasy.

This isn’t intended as a slam against MN’s administration. But MN is chock full of false doctrine, political liberalism, right wing political extremism, false information, right wing click bait falsehoods being repeated, promotion of Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy (which our founding documents called “chiefest abominations”), mocking, railing, dissension, and many other things which are not compatible with genuine Anabaptist values. Most more conservative Anabaptists have been driven off the forum, so basically the Anabaptists who are are here are either progressive-liberals or moderate-conservatives.

I would support anyone who took a stance against participating in a forum like this as a church group.

[Neto]

Moderate conservative land? What about the 2 Trump Amish buggy parades in Fredericksburg OH in 2020? Granted there were few buggies bur I did see obvious Mennos dressed plain with head coverings among the street lined supporters in the videos I saw

Valerie, those Mennos were probably moderate conservatives as well - that’s exactly what I’m talking about.

Whereas Amish overwhelmingly wouldn’t be involved in a parade like that and any that I have talked to about it were very embarrassed and took pains to point out the people that did it were youth, presumably wild and/or not church members yet.

This is different than a church’s song leader with a Trump campaign bumper sticker in the parking lot on Sunday.

Probably a different group, but there were Amish girls on horses in the parade in Berlin, carrying large American flags. Later my wife was told (by some of her Amish relatives) that it is an organized group, called "Six Girls with Horses". I agree, probably not church members. But still, we were

[Neto]

I know a dad who thinks MN was the single biggest factor for his child's apostasy. Yet, people who don't like the viewpoint article, continue to use Mennonet. Mennonet is something that some churches ban. Wouldn't a logical response of those who don't like the viewpoint article be to discontinue reading Mennonet?

I would not be surprised if MN has played a part in such apostasy.

This isn’t intended as a slam against MN’s administration. But MN is chock full of false doctrine, political liberalism, right wing political extremism, false information, right wing click bait falsehoods being repeated, promotion of Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy (which our founding documents called “chiefest abominations”), mocking, railing, dissension, and many other things which are not compatible with genuine Anabaptist values. Most more conservative Anabaptists have been driven off the forum, so basically the Anabaptists who are are here are either progressive-liberals or moderate-conservatives.

I would support anyone who took a stance against participating in a forum like this as a church group.

I in no way defend those types of unkind interactions, and while I would probably be considered to be some sort of "progressive" by many here on this forum, I generally avoid all politics - usually don't even read any of it, let alone respond. I do sometimes fail in keeping my responses without any quick retorts of defensiveness or aggression, so I'm not claiming to be the 'perfect anabaptist'. I will say this, however, in respect to whether a forum like this should or should not be used by "conservative folks', that Menno Simons would probably be here. Yes, he often comes across as being very naive, seemingly thinking that if he can just clearly explain how he really believed, and how he sees the Scriptural support for those views, that then his opponents would understand, and consider him a brother in the Lord. That's why I think that he would be here, too, trying to counteract the false doctrine that we see here at times, trying to give an accurate picture of what it looks like to follow Jesus.