Propoganda: The Formation of Men’s Attitudes

[PetrChelcicky]

I am an admirer of Ellul, but eventually I know only his book against the violents.
Here he comes over as a man who is thorough and careful, combing through all arguments pro violence which have been invented.
That said, my first reaction is like Max's.
As for the use of psychology, I suppose that Ellul here considers modern marketing (propaganda) as a way to get customers to buy something. This might explain his idea that modern propaganda tries to stir up people to act in a certain way.

As for his general critique of technology, it reminds to me the debate about "social engineering". The neo-liberals around Hayek were dead against "social engineering" (Hayek saw a narrow connection between engineering and socialism), whereas Popper defended social engineering and only demanded that it had to be "piecemeal", i.e. reversible.
I don't think that we may treat abstract concepts like "technology" or "technics" as the agent of social developments (from the same reasons we cannot treat "racism" as such an agent, it leads to superstitious and magical thinking. Humans must be convinced that they do have agency themselves.)

[Ken]

I haven’t read Ellul. I have enough other stuff in my Amazon queue and I am way behind in my reading of the various interesting books I seem to keep collecting. But I would make two points.

1. I’m not sure that most modern propaganda is necessarily all that more scientifically based and scientifically-governed than the “primitive” efforts of the past. It seems to me that a lot of what constitutes modern propaganda is just people flinging endless stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks and running with it. Which gets multiplied and amplified on social media in ways that didn’t exist in the past. Perhaps what countries like China are doing internally is more scientifically based and driven. But I’m not sure if their propaganda is necessarily more effective than previous totalitarian states like Nazi Germany, Stalinist USSR, or even the Confederate South.

2. I’m not convinced that ancient examples like Pericles were all that amateurish and primitive. By all accounts such as the writings of Thucydides he was a genius orator and politician who whipped up the Athenian population in support of endless war. People in the past were as intelligent, insightful, and astute about human behavior as we are today. Pre-modern documents like the Declaration of Independence are as compelling and sophisticated as anything being written today. Our science has advanced tremendously. But I’m not sure our understanding of human nature has really advanced all that much over the centuries.

[AnthonyMartin]

Has anyone read the book?

[Bootstrap]

Has anyone read the book?

Yes, but not recently. And I would really need to reread it to say anything intelligent about it.

[HondurasKeiser]

I've been very fascinated with the writings of Neil Postman, Jacques Ellul and such in their future speculations from the mid 20th century.

Alan Jacobs has a very long and winding essay in The New Atlantis that you might find interesting.

[MaxPC]

Has anyone read the book?

I did once upon a decade. I will not badger you by repeating that which I have already shared.

[AnthonyMartin]

Has anyone read the book?

I did once upon a decade. I will not badger you by repeating that which I have already shared.

And I believe I agree with your take. Certainly technology has shaped its use significantly

[Bootstrap]

And I believe I agree with your take. Certainly technology has shaped its use significantly

FWIW, Jill LePore has written a great deal about that. Including the use of focus groups to test-market messaging and the use of data analytics to see who is clicking on and engaged with materials put out on the Internet. Micro-targeting messages to specific groups based on very detailed information about them.

It certainly makes propaganda more effective.

[AnthonyMartin]

I've been very fascinated with the writings of Neil Postman, Jacques Ellul and such in their future speculations from the mid 20th century.

Alan Jacobs has a very long and winding essay in The New Atlantis that you might find interesting.

This is really very excellent I think. Do you think that, for the Judeo-Christian beliefs, advancing technologies, and the resulting movement of all things including humans towards being raw material in a large economic system, creates a dangerous marriage between this system and Genesis 1:26-28? Subdue the earth and have dominion over it.

[HondurasKeiser]

I've been very fascinated with the writings of Neil Postman, Jacques Ellul and such in their future speculations from the mid 20th century.

Alan Jacobs has a very long and winding essay in The New Atlantis that you might find interesting.

This is really very excellent I think. Do you think that, for the Judeo-Christian beliefs, advancing technologies, and the resulting movement of all things including humans towards being raw material in a large economic system, creates a dangerous marriage between this system and Genesis 1:26-28? Subdue the earth and have dominion over it.

Shorter Answer: No.

Longer Answer: I mean, I think I can see where you're going with that and I agree with the impulse. However, I think Genesis 1:26-28 is a blessing and a virtue and a consequence of being Image Bearers of God. Indeed, it seems in some sense that it's part of our created purpose to live out that dictum in those verses. I think the more apt comparison though, drawn from scripture is that of Genesis 11:1-9 (Tower of Babel). In my untrained opinion: At root that story is not about why we speak myriad languages - rather it's a cautionary tale about man's impulse to build Utopia on Earth and to subsume everything else into that endeavor (including the individual, human difference, etc.) Inasmuch as technology molds us and filters the way we interact with the world - makes into consumers and wholly dependent on that technology for survival, makes us into a resource for use in the system which is ever-bent towards commodification and efficiency; flattens out human difference and culture and makes all things, everywhere, the same. it "feels like" (much as I hate that phrase) that WE are being built into a Babel Tower of sorts. I'm not sure if that makes sense - I can barely put into words my own thoughts about it and so I may be way off. If ever I write a novel though, the underlying motif will be just that.