Who reads Greek?

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Valerie
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Valerie »

May I ask a question? (I guess I just did)

Do you believe it is almost harmful to try to apply Greek if you are not really educated in it? In other words, I have a Greek Linear New Testament but without REALLY KNOWING Greek, is it better to not even try to gain more understanding by plugging in Greek words here and there as we read? (hope I'm making sense).
I have witnessed Christians doing this when sharing passages and I'm not necessarily comfortable with the conclusions/interpretations they arrive at by this practice- (I'm speaking of those not REALLY educated in Greek)
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temporal1
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by temporal1 »

Neto wrote:
KingdomBuilder wrote: Curious, where did you Greek-readers learn this skill ?
I had courses at St Paul Bible College (now Crown College) as a part of my Bachelors in Missiology. I kind of let it slide when I got really deep into linguistics grad courses, then used it extensively when I actually got started with Bible translation on the field. I would have liked to study Hebrew as well, but I never got it done. :D
KB, a message from Knightlight:
"I learned in college. I took Latin first and then Classical Greek.

Some of my profs had been studying these languages for decades. We read NT Greek as "easy" Greek before tackling authors like Herodotus and Thucydides. The emphasis in Classics is on sentence structure and the style of the author rather than picking out individual words.

The advantage of this method is you understand classical constructions in NT authors, and you get in the habit of focusing on what the author actually wrote, as opposed to what some theological argument demands.

Btw, the Latin Vulgate isn't just important for Catholics.
It was the Bible for at least some Anabaptists, and there are Anabaptists who wrote in Latin.
Some folks on MN could tell you more about this.
Knight"
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Josh
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Josh »

Valerie wrote:May I ask a question? (I guess I just did)

Do you believe it is almost harmful to try to apply Greek if you are not really educated in it? In other words, I have a Greek Linear New Testament but without REALLY KNOWING Greek, is it better to not even try to gain more understanding by plugging in Greek words here and there as we read? (hope I'm making sense).
I have witnessed Christians doing this when sharing passages and I'm not necessarily comfortable with the conclusions/interpretations they arrive at by this practice- (I'm speaking of those not REALLY educated in Greek)
I think it is. I definitely think applying Strong's is more harmful than just reading a few good translations.

By the way, I don't consider myself skilled in Greek. I know enough to know what I don't know, and enough to recognise when someone who claims they do is making stuff up or is very misinformed.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by JimFoxvog »

Forty-some years ago I did about a half semester worth of a Koine Greek textbook on my own. I can still look things up in the dictionary at the back of my Greek New Testament. (UBS 1968) I find the notes on textual variants sometimes helpful.

No, I don't read Greek. I sometimes recognize Greek roots in English words.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Bootstrap »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Curious, where did you Greek-readers learn this skill?
I started out by using a morphologically tagged text of the Greek New Testament and a grammar, then I found the B-Greek mailing list, which has since turned into an Internet forum (http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/). There, I was able to ask questions that were answered by professors and teachers all over the world, and they gave me advice for learning.

A lot of it boils down to taking 30 minutes to an hour a day reading Greek, asking whatever questions come up as you go. It's really the amount of time you spend with your nose buried in Greek that counts. Learning Greek is not terribly different from learning any other language, you need to spend a lot of time actually using the language.

I'm not any great authority on Greek, but I'm comfortable reading it, and I teach a class once a week. I never took a formal class, but there are people who do teach these classes who would vouch for my Greek, and there are people in my class who studied Greek in seminary and say they are learning it better now because of the way that I teach it. Like most things, teaching Greek seems to help me solidify what I know.

I do present at conferences for biblical languages at least once a year, and help organize part of one such conference. Most people who do that have formal credentials like PhDs in related fields. I don't. I often introduce myself as a Greek Hobbyist at such conferences.

Here's something I'm curious about: how many people wish they had a way to learn Greek, and would put time into it if they did?
Last edited by Bootstrap on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:By the way, I don't consider myself skilled in Greek. I know enough to know what I don't know, and enough to recognise when someone who claims they do is making stuff up or is very misinformed.
Even the experts don't make claims based on their own authority. I don't consider myself that kind of expert, I can read and understand texts, and look up answers to questions, and I know where to find experts who can answer the really hard questions or double check my understanding.

But you hear an awful lot of claims that are quite obviously nonsense.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:I think it is. I definitely think applying Strong's is more harmful than just reading a few good translations.
I agree. The structure of a sentence is really important for understanding meaning, and interlinears don't give you that.

Strong's was never designed to be used as a lexicon, it just gives you glosses that tell you how the KJV translated a word. People who cannot even spell a word in Greek, who cannot even look up a word in alphabetical order in a dictionary, claim to be able to "correct" the translations. Strong's numbers allow them to refer to a word they cannot even spell.

Greek is a language. Like any other language, you have to learn it before you can be an expert. And languages take time and effort to learn.

Bottom line: Trust the English translations. Even if your Greek is good, if your understanding disagrees with the translations, you should start by examining why they understood it the way they did. Translations may differ, there's usually a good reason for that, with more than one reasonable interpretation of the original Greek.
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appleman2006
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by appleman2006 »

Bootstrap wrote: Bottom line: Trust the English translations. Even if your Greek is good, if your understanding disagrees with the translations, you should start by examining why they understood it the way they did. Translations may differ, there's usually a good reason for that, with more than one reasonable interpretation of the original Greek.
I really like the way you put this Bootstrap. I really appreciate those who have taken the time to study Greek. What I do not appreciate is when some of those people (not many thankfully) give the impression that unless you are fluent in original languages you cannot understand what God is saying to us through scripture. It is affirming to me to hear you say what you did above and I thank you for it. That in no way is to make light of the skill you have.
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Sudsy
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote: Here's something I'm curious about: how many people wish they had a way to learn Greek, and would put time into it if they did?
Not me. Imo, this would just add to my list of projects that I don't believe are Kingdom building.

My curiousity on the subject is for those who have learned Greek: what advantage has it been to Kingdom building (i.e. is there something important with knowing Greek that gives some advantage of following Jesus over those who don't ?) Perhaps it could be argued that learning Greek could become a disadvantage.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Bootstrap »

Sudsy wrote:My curiousity on the subject is for those who have learned Greek: what advantage has it been to Kingdom building (i.e. is there something important with knowing Greek that gives some advantage of following Jesus over those who don't ?) Perhaps it could be argued that learning Greek could become a disadvantage.
How could reading the Bible in any language be a disadvantage?

Something does get lost in the translation. It's not significant at the doctrinal level, it's more a matter of feel. In the original, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John have very different writing styles, so do Paul and Peter. If you appreciate the difference between the English in different translations, you would appreciate the difference between the Greek of different authors. Knowing Greek makes it possible to read the commentaries that address a lot of questions that others do not. And of course, if you are producing translations, you need to know Greek.

It also helps you evaluate claims people make. Some people and groups like to make "authoritative" claims about what the Bible says "in the original Greek" that are not remotely true. It's good to have a few people around who know how to evaluate these claims, because many of them do affect doctrine, sometimes propping up false doctrine. And even when they do not, some people use these claims to give themselves status. Real scholars are interested in the subject they study, not in telling everyone what amazing experts they are. On the B-Greek forum, people with impressive credentials do not list them in their profile or brag about them, they only discuss them when they are significant for what is being discussed.

Context is more important than learning Greek. I like listening to the Bible in whole books, repeatedly, or reading books repeatedly from start to end. But I do think the Kingdom needs a few geeks who work with Greek. Maybe it's a bit like farming - how do you build the Kingdom by working in the field all day? The benefits may be hard to justify, but they are there. Each is a calling for some, but not for others.
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