Who reads Greek?

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Neto
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Neto »

Sudsy wrote:
Bootstrap wrote: Here's something I'm curious about: how many people wish they had a way to learn Greek, and would put time into it if they did?
Not me. Imo, this would just add to my list of projects that I don't believe are Kingdom building.

My curiousity on the subject is for those who have learned Greek: what advantage has it been to Kingdom building (i.e. is there something important with knowing Greek that gives some advantage of following Jesus over those who don't ?) Perhaps it could be argued that learning Greek could become a disadvantage.
It is a very important knowledge set for anyone who wants to do Bible translation. Here's why I feel this way: Languages deal with even common concepts differently. Sometimes in the translation process it is imperative that the translator add a word or two (sometimes even more) in order to have the wording make good sense, and demonstrate natural discourse structure. If you are translating from a translation, then you may be adding some more words which are not even necessary in the third language, to convey the meaning of the original. In other words, the original language (Greek, in this case) may present the ideas in ways which are more similar to the third language than to English. So you can end up going around the barn a few times just to say something that is not even in the text in the original language.
Some languages are also more "economical" than others. An example in the language we worked on is that body parts can stand for the person, such as when the English text says that "the soldiers spit on Jesus' face", the Indian language requires a passive sentence (to maintain proper discourse structure, where the topic of the discourse is always the subject of the sentence), where 'face' is the subject, and it says "Face was spit on by the soldiers." (Also a reason why I am not impressed with claims that a given translation is "more literal" than another. Literalness can literally obscure or confuse the meaning.) Also, if the Indian language where we worked was the second language text (the one you were translating from, into English, for example), you would face other problems. This language has what linguists call Inclusive & Exclusive 1st person plural pronouns, in addition to both dual & plural markers. So 'we' must specify if the hearer is included in the 'we', and also if the 'we' is only two people, or three or more.
(Incidentally, this is also why I don't care for the Funk translation of The Complete Writings of Menno Simons, because it is an English translation of the German translation, and it does not read naturally, in my opinion. I don't read or speak Dutch, so I cannot verify the accuracy of it against the other version, which is a direct translation of the Dutch text.)

Bible translation is not a part of "kingdom building" for everyone, but it has been for me.
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Sudsy
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote:
Sudsy wrote:My curiousity on the subject is for those who have learned Greek: what advantage has it been to Kingdom building (i.e. is there something important with knowing Greek that gives some advantage of following Jesus over those who don't ?) Perhaps it could be argued that learning Greek could become a disadvantage.
How could reading the Bible in any language be a disadvantage?

I said perhaps 'learning Greek could become a disadvantage'. I was thinking about the time and effort required to pursue this project when I could be using that time in doing more things as Jesus modelled. It could also get me involved more in debating what the Bible really means in various texts and many times this too becomes a fruitless venture, imo. I probably do too much of this here.

Something does get lost in the translation. It's not significant at the doctrinal level, it's more a matter of feel. In the original, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John have very different writing styles, so do Paul and Peter. If you appreciate the difference between the English in different translations, you would appreciate the difference between the Greek of different authors. Knowing Greek makes it possible to read the commentaries that address a lot of questions that others do not. And of course, if you are producing translations, you need to know Greek.

Yes, I'm thankful for those who have produced translations even though they have not agreed in many areas. Here is one of those in the 'eye of the needle' text that points out how words could be translated and yet the point being made in the text is the same - http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm

It also helps you evaluate claims people make. Some people and groups like to make "authoritative" claims about what the Bible says "in the original Greek" that are not remotely true. It's good to have a few people around who know how to evaluate these claims, because many of them do affect doctrine, sometimes propping up false doctrine. And even when they do not, some people use these claims to give themselves status. Real scholars are interested in the subject they study, not in telling everyone what amazing experts they are. On the B-Greek forum, people with impressive credentials do not list them in their profile or brag about them, they only discuss them when they are significant for what is being discussed.

Seems to me many doctrinal differences occur aside from the Greek translation - i.e Romans 9 interpretation. But perhaps ones like John 1;1 is an example of what you are referring to as JWs translate it - https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -word-god/

Context is more important than learning Greek. I like listening to the Bible in whole books, repeatedly, or reading books repeatedly from start to end. But I do think the Kingdom needs a few geeks who work with Greek. Maybe it's a bit like farming - how do you build the Kingdom by working in the field all day? The benefits may be hard to justify, but they are there. Each is a calling for some, but not for others.
For myself and not everyone, learning Greek would be another distraction from Christian practise. My area of greater distraction would be and has often been in studying how to play a sport better. Distractions are likely in those areas we excel in the most. If we were only more distracted to become fishers of men.
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lesterb
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by lesterb »

I can't read Greek. So I have to use a lexicon / dictionary if I want to know more about a word. It is often hard to catch all the nuances of a Greek or Hebrew word in a single word or phrase, which is all that the translations can do, so I like at times to get a broader perspective of the word. That is one reason I really like the NET notes.

My first court of appeal is pretty well always a comparison of translations. If I discover a lot of variation in thinking, then I check further. Some passages simply are obscure, even for Greek or Hebrew scholars and the best they can do is look at the context and try to figure out what it is all about.

For instance...

[bible]ecc 5,9[/bible]
Note the footnote in the ESV

The NET note for this verse reads...
N27 tn The syntax and exegesis of the line is difficult. There are three basic interpretive options:

(1) the king takes care of the security of the cultivated land: "in any case, the advantage of a country is that there is a king for the cultivated land";

(2) the king is in favor of a prosperous agricultural policy: "in any case, the advantage of a country is that there is a king who is obeyed for the sake of the agriculture"; and

(3) the king exploits the poor farmers: "the produce of the land is [seized] by all, even the king is served by the fields."

Perhaps the best option in the light of the context is to take the referent of כֹּל (kol, "all") to the government officials of Ecc_5:8 rather than to the people as a whole. The verse depicts the exploitation of the poor farmers by corrupt government officials. This is reflected in two English versions: "the increase from the land is taken by all; the king himself profits from the fields" (NIV); "the profit of the land is among all of them; a cultivated field has a king" (RSV margin).

On the other hand, the Septuagint (LXX) treated the syntax so the king is viewed in a neutral sense: και περισσεια γης ἐπι παντι ἐστι, βασιλευς του αργου εἰργασμενου ("The abundance of the earth is for everyone; the king is dependent on the tilled field").

Most English versions deal with the syntax so that the king is viewed in a neutral or positive sense: "the profit of the earth is for all; the king himself is served by the field" (KJV); "a king who cultivates the field is an advantage to the land" (NASB); "this is an advantage for a land: a king for a plowed field" (NRSV); "the greatest advantage in all the land is his: he controls a field that is cultivated" (NJPS); "a country prospers with a king who has control" (Moffatt); "a king devoted to the field is an advantage to the land" (MLB); "a king is an advantage to a land with cultivated fields" (RSV); "the best thing for a country is a king whose own lands are well tilled" (NEB); and "an advantage for a country in every respect is a king for the arable land" (NAB). See D. BarthÈlemy, ed., Preliminary and Interim Report on the Hebrew Old Testament Text Project, 3:576-77.
While a knowledge of Hebrew would be helpful, the layout of this note give a lot of information that people without that knowledge can understand. The overview of various translations saves a lot of work. This is what I look for when I hit something like this. [I will reproduce this in the Ecclesiastes threat, along with what I wrote for an explanation. Note that I wrote this before I read the NET note, so it is possible to take this understanding from these verses simply by comparing translations.]
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Sudsy
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Sudsy »

I read somewhere that early Anabaptists believed that by the Spirit of God, every believer was capable of understanding the scriptures and that although learning things like Greek could help in bible translating, the meaning of scripture could be known by an uneducated person through the Spirit. They, did, however, also believe in a community interpretation consensus. But understanding scripture is a work of the Spirit and not something achieved through human effort.

Is this still a basic Anabaptist belief ? I thought it was.
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lesterb
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by lesterb »

Books like Proverbs and Ecclesiastes lose a lot in translation. Sometimes the sentence structure adds color. Poetic structure does the same, and parallelism of thought or structure. Some of this shows up in the first part of Ecc 7. The contrasts here are not only poetic in nature but parallel in structure. While a translator can translate the words, translating the color or mood is sometime almost impossible. It is possible to learn all that is necessary in English, and that is the best that some of us can do. The Holy Spirit certainly directs our understanding - I agree with that.

But there is always a little of the lustre that gets lost in the handling.

Or that is how it seems to me.
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Neto
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Neto »

Sudsy wrote:I read somewhere that early Anabaptists believed that by the Spirit of God, every believer was capable of understanding the scriptures and that although learning things like Greek could help in bible translating, the meaning of scripture could be known by an uneducated person through the Spirit. They, did, however, also believe in a community interpretation consensus. But understanding scripture is a work of the Spirit and not something achieved through human effort.

Is this still a basic Anabaptist belief ? I thought it was.
I will give my opinion, as a Bible translator. I firmly believe that the same Holy Spirit whose help the translator seeks is also available to the uneducated native person. Yet it is the translator's job to duplicate the meaning of the original as closely as possible. This makes the truth of the Scripture available to the reader. Ideally, the ambiguities are also left in the text, but sometimes this is not possible. This is where I was most bothered by the responsibility laid on me as the translator. What I'm saying is that the best would be if the same questions would come to the reader's mind, no matter what language he or she is reading it in, leaving the understanding to be interpreted by the presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the reader. But I will say more about the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the brothers with whom I worked to produce Scripture in their language - sometimes the Holy Spirit revealed truths to them which I only saw through their eyes, through their witness to me of the Spirit's words in their innermost beings. This was the most meaningful part of my work there, and I'm fighting tears even now. It was perhaps humbling, but one of the greatest blessings I have ever experienced. (Just lost the battle with the tears....) It seems odd, what with all of our (Wycliffe people) talk about the 'heart language', but no translation moves me as much as the Word in this language, more even than in English. (I can only pray that it will continue to move them, as well.)

"He that has ears, Let him hear." I do think that this also speaks to a necessary effort - work, if you will, to gain understanding. To go into the kingdom by force of will, demonstrating sincerity.
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Neto
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Neto »

lesterb wrote: ...there is always a little of the lustre that gets lost in the handling.
I don't read any of the original languages well enough to really catch that "luster", but this is the sort of thing that sometimes does come through, like Paul's play on words with statements like "you are not busy, you are busybodies", and "I wish they would go the whole way & cut themselves off." This latter one comes across with a primary meaning that is really rather crass, but I think that the underlying meaning is what he was really trying to convey, with "cut off" as referring to "being cut off from the people of God".
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Josh
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Josh »

Sudsy wrote:I read somewhere that early Anabaptists believed that by the Spirit of God, every believer was capable of understanding the scriptures and that although learning things like Greek could help in bible translating, the meaning of scripture could be known by an uneducated person through the Spirit. They, did, however, also believe in a community interpretation consensus. But understanding scripture is a work of the Spirit and not something achieved through human effort.

Is this still a basic Anabaptist belief ? I thought it was.
It is in all the circles I've been in, both progressive and conservative.
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Josh
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Josh »

lesterb wrote:Books like Proverbs and Ecclesiastes lose a lot in translation. Sometimes the sentence structure adds color. Poetic structure does the same, and parallelism of thought or structure. Some of this shows up in the first part of Ecc 7. The contrasts here are not only poetic in nature but parallel in structure. While a translator can translate the words, translating the color or mood is sometime almost impossible. It is possible to learn all that is necessary in English, and that is the best that some of us can do. The Holy Spirit certainly directs our understanding - I agree with that.

But there is always a little of the lustre that gets lost in the handling.

Or that is how it seems to me.
Genesis 1 is the same way. You can't really grasp the beautiful poetry of it unless you read it out loud in the original Hebrew. And unfortunately for me, then I don't understand what it is saying.
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Adam
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Re: Who reads Greek?

Post by Adam »

Sudsy wrote:
Bootstrap wrote: Here's something I'm curious about: how many people wish they had a way to learn Greek, and would put time into it if they did?
Not me. Imo, this would just add to my list of projects that I don't believe are Kingdom building.

My curiousity on the subject is for those who have learned Greek: what advantage has it been to Kingdom building (i.e. is there something important with knowing Greek that gives some advantage of following Jesus over those who don't ?) Perhaps it could be argued that learning Greek could become a disadvantage.
One advantage of reading the New Testament in Greek is that it makes it feel like you are reading very familiar passages for the first time. This can be really good. Sometimes we can get so used to what the Bible says that we stop hearing it afresh. Reading it in Greek (or any other language for that matter) helps keep it fresh (at least for me). It helps me to reconsider whether the understanding I am bringing to the text is accurate. But that is just an advantage that I see. I don't think reading Greek is at all necessary, especially if it will be a distraction. And I think it is important for anybody who reads Greek to also read the New Testament in your native language as well because when you hear God's Word in your native language it has a different kind of impact on you. Nevertheless, I don't think there is a high correlation to reading Greek and living out the Kingdom life. Actually, it is probably the opposite. It is those who are able to take God's Word with childlike faith who are most effective at living the Kingdom life. Readers of Greek have to be careful that reading God's Word doesn't become an academic exercise, which it can very easily become.

I also concur with Neto's comments about the necessity of knowing Greek to do effective Bible translation. You can get about 95% without reading Greek, but knowing Greek is very helpful for the times when English translations are not clear. One quick example is the singular vs. plural you, which is almost never clear in English translations but is very easy to see in Greek.
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