Bible Translations...

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lesterb
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Re: Bible Translations...

Post by lesterb »

Adam wrote:
lesterb wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
For word meanings, Strong's simply tells you how the word was translated into the KJV, no more, no less. So it won't be more accurate than the KJV. And it's usually less accurate, because the KJV translators were looking at the Greek in context in a way that you can't unless you know Greek.

If you don't read Greek, not with an interlinear but the same way you read English, I don't know how you can tell if there are more errors on the original intent in the other versions.
I've wondered already how many times some dictionaries simply give the meaning that the translator used rather than the actual meaning, or they may add the meaning. I can't think of an example off hand, but I've noticed cases where one meaning (the one used in the KJV) was given and then a group of other meanings that seemed unrelated. I don't think that is fair to the student, and is one reason that I seldom use Strong's, except sometimes for a second opinion.

But everyone has their own way of doing things.

I tend to use Thayer's for Greek definitions and BDB for Hebrew. But I get about as much help by comparing versions. Right now I have the KJV, the ESV, the NET, and the NLT side by side on my screen. That's another nice feature of E-sword.

Some of the rest of you, What are your favorite resources?
I love the Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Frederick William Danker. It is one of the few New Testament Greek lexicons that actually gives definitions for words and not just glosses (i.e. one-word translations). The layout is really easy to use. This is the Danker who represents the letter D in BDAG, which is the standard Greek-English lexicon for New Testament studies (a great resource in itself but very bulky and way more information than is helpful for quick reference purposes). But for a quick reference the Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament is by far the best in my opinion.
Hmm, $81 for a print copy at amazon.ca or $66 for a Kindle version.

I guess I'll have to wait until it's in public domain and starts to show up as a free add-on. ;)
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MaxPC
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Re: Bible Translations...

Post by MaxPC »

Josh wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
Adam wrote:
I love the Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Frederick William Danker. It is one of the few New Testament Greek lexicons that actually gives definitions for words and not just glosses (i.e. one-word translations). The layout is really easy to use. This is the Danker who represents the letter D in BDAG, which is the standard Greek-English lexicon for New Testament studies (a great resource in itself but very bulky and way more information than is helpful for quick reference purposes). But for a quick reference the Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament is by far the best in my opinion.
Catholic academic world prefers these sources as well for Greek courses. Prior to that they used Bauer and a few others.

It gladdens my heart to see excellent scholarship still being produced to maintain translation integrity: great work, Adam! I've encountered too many "self taught, self-appointed experts" who think they can read Greek without being formally trained in it.
At the leading Roman Catholic university I used to be a part of, these sources were not preferred either by the theologians in the theology department nor the on-site convent of lay religious sisters.

The last time I can remember a Bible reading, the Message was used.
Which university and what year, Josh? You keep citing this one experience repeatedly and I'm curious to know who, where and when.

Keep in mind that one experience at one university does not an expert make. No more than going to a few Mennonite fellowships would make a non-Mennonite an expert on Mennonite culture and theology. :mrgreen:
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Adam
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Re: Bible Translations...

Post by Adam »

lesterb wrote:
Adam wrote:
lesterb wrote: I've wondered already how many times some dictionaries simply give the meaning that the translator used rather than the actual meaning, or they may add the meaning. I can't think of an example off hand, but I've noticed cases where one meaning (the one used in the KJV) was given and then a group of other meanings that seemed unrelated. I don't think that is fair to the student, and is one reason that I seldom use Strong's, except sometimes for a second opinion.

But everyone has their own way of doing things.

I tend to use Thayer's for Greek definitions and BDB for Hebrew. But I get about as much help by comparing versions. Right now I have the KJV, the ESV, the NET, and the NLT side by side on my screen. That's another nice feature of E-sword.

Some of the rest of you, What are your favorite resources?
I love the Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Frederick William Danker. It is one of the few New Testament Greek lexicons that actually gives definitions for words and not just glosses (i.e. one-word translations). The layout is really easy to use. This is the Danker who represents the letter D in BDAG, which is the standard Greek-English lexicon for New Testament studies (a great resource in itself but very bulky and way more information than is helpful for quick reference purposes). But for a quick reference the Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament is by far the best in my opinion.
Hmm, $81 for a print copy at amazon.ca or $66 for a Kindle version.

I guess I'll have to wait until it's in public domain and starts to show up as a free add-on. ;)
The Concise Greek-English Lexicon is available for $59.88 on Amazon. It is a bit pricey, but worth it in my opinion. I would not recommend a Kindle version.
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lesterb
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Re: Bible Translations...

Post by lesterb »

Adam wrote:
lesterb wrote:
Adam wrote:
I love the Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Frederick William Danker. It is one of the few New Testament Greek lexicons that actually gives definitions for words and not just glosses (i.e. one-word translations). The layout is really easy to use. This is the Danker who represents the letter D in BDAG, which is the standard Greek-English lexicon for New Testament studies (a great resource in itself but very bulky and way more information than is helpful for quick reference purposes). But for a quick reference the Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament is by far the best in my opinion.
Hmm, $81 for a print copy at amazon.ca or $66 for a Kindle version.

I guess I'll have to wait until it's in public domain and starts to show up as a free add-on. ;)
The Concise Greek-English Lexicon is available for $59.88 on Amazon. It is a bit pricey, but worth it in my opinion. I would not recommend a Kindle version.
The $81 is Canadian dollars, bought from Amazon Canada. I could get it shipped from the US, but it would cost me that anyway. Maybe I can get a used one somewhere sometime.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Bible Translations...

Post by Bootstrap »

lesterb wrote: I tend to use Thayer's for Greek definitions and BDB for Hebrew. But I get about as much help by comparing versions. Right now I have the KJV, the ESV, the NET, and the NLT side by side on my screen. That's another nice feature of E-sword.
If you don't know Greek and Hebrew, comparing versions is one of the best things you can do. Even if you do know Greek and Hebrew, comparing versions can alert you to other ways a sentence can be understood or help you catch simple, stupid mistakes when you misread a sentence - but it's best to do that after doing careful reading in the original language, just as it's best to consult the commentaries after reading a passage.

Some of the resources in electronic Bibles are not the same as the originals they claim to be, including Thayers.

You can find the original Thayers as one of the resources in the Blue Letter Bible lexicon, which is accessible for people who do not know Greek. Here is a sample entry:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 3398&t=ESV

It provides several other lexicons, too, and a useful concordance.

Bill Mounce has done a better concordance with his own lexicon here:

https://billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/mikros

David Instone-Brewer has done interesting work linking lexicons to an English translation in the STEP Bible:

https://stepbible.org/?q=version=ESV|re ... ions=HNVUG

All of these look reasonably good to me at first blush, but I haven't looked at them in depth, I generally use other resources, but the ones I use aren't useful without knowing Greek.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Bible Translations...

Post by Bootstrap »

lesterb wrote:
Adam wrote:I love the Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Frederick William Danker. It is one of the few New Testament Greek lexicons that actually gives definitions for words and not just glosses (i.e. one-word translations). The layout is really easy to use. This is the Danker who represents the letter D in BDAG, which is the standard Greek-English lexicon for New Testament studies (a great resource in itself but very bulky and way more information than is helpful for quick reference purposes). But for a quick reference the Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament is by far the best in my opinion.
Hmm, $81 for a print copy at amazon.ca or $66 for a Kindle version.

I guess I'll have to wait until it's in public domain and starts to show up as a free add-on. ;)
These are great resources. BDAG is indeed the standard, but it's a bit overwhelming for quick lookups, it's much better for researching a word in depth. I agree that the Concise Lexicon is better for quick lookups, but I suspect both resources are best for someone who knows at least enough Greek to look up a word alphabetically in a Greek lexicon, a skill you can learn in a few hours, but one that many people do not have.

You can see sample pages of both lexicons, and several others, here:

https://sites.google.com/site/gcsnt502/ ... s/lexicons

It does not mention the Abbott-Smith lexicon, a useful lexicon which you can read online here, and find in some programs for free:

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/resources ... smith.html

You can buy used versions of Abbott-Smith at a very reasonable price.
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Josh
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Re: Bible Translations...

Post by Josh »

MaxPC wrote:
Josh wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
Catholic academic world prefers these sources as well for Greek courses. Prior to that they used Bauer and a few others.

It gladdens my heart to see excellent scholarship still being produced to maintain translation integrity: great work, Adam! I've encountered too many "self taught, self-appointed experts" who think they can read Greek without being formally trained in it.
At the leading Roman Catholic university I used to be a part of, these sources were not preferred either by the theologians in the theology department nor the on-site convent of lay religious sisters.

The last time I can remember a Bible reading, the Message was used.
Which university and what year, Josh? You keep citing this one experience repeatedly and I'm curious to know who, where and when.

Keep in mind that one experience at one university does not an expert make. No more than going to a few Mennonite fellowships would make a non-Mennonite an expert on Mennonite culture and theology. :mrgreen:
I'll let you go first to list your qualifications, but it's obvious where I went and what years on my LinkedIn, which is public.

The person I remember the best was Virginia Rodee.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Bible Translations...

Post by Bootstrap »

In this thread, the topic is Bible translations. If anyone has expertise, why not use that expertise to shed light on this subject, and not to exalt yourself or put others down? I do think it's important to correct misconceptions as they arise, and sometimes to clarify who knows what, but I don't know how credentials became the subject of this thread.

Can we go back to the topic?
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Re: Bible Translations...

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:In this thread, the topic is Bible translations. If anyone has expertise, why not use that expertise to shed light on this subject, and not to exalt yourself or put others down? I do think it's important to correct misconceptions as they arise, and sometimes to clarify who knows what, but I don't know how credentials became the subject of this thread.

Can we go back to the topic?
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Re: Bible Translations...

Post by ohio jones »

This is much easier to understand in The Message:
Josh wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Can we go back to the topic?
No way, Josè.
:P
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