Chart: A Seekers' Progression towards NT faith and practice

[Sudsy]

Sudsy,
The 'legalist' is attempting to gain favor with God (ultimately, salvation), while those who Ernie is calling 'kingdom Christians' are attempting to live lives of obedience to God because God has, in his great grace, given them salvation. Obedience is then viewed as evidence of the grace of God having been accepted & applied, because 'the one who is aware of his great sin loves more' (and love toward God is evidenced by obedience).
(I didn't go back & re-read the chart, which I would have last seen way back when the thread started. I'm just going by what he says here in his last post.)
I know nothing of the situation in the congregation being described here, but as an outsider to the culture here, I would say that the language difference, and just seeing the ease with which the 'insiders' relate to one another culturally may be some of the main factors in why 'seekers' wander away, why they feel that they will never really fit in.
I think that another factor may be related to something I went through myself, in my first attempt to 'go conservative', years before I met anyone from this community. I had the notion that living by a set of 'rules' might help me to have a deeper Christian life. It doesn't work that way because even though I was imposing the rules on my own self, no outside authority or pressure involved, it was not born of an inward change. I was attempting to achieve the inward change by adopting the outward regulations. That just doesn't work. It only creates guilt and hypocrisy.
The other thing is that the 'seeker' often comes with 'rose colored glasses' firmly placed over their eyes. Gradually the reality of the 'humanness' of the 'insiders' forces its way through to the eyes in such a way that the glasses are broken and useless to hide it anymore. Disillusionment follows, and the objective of achieving 'perfection' oneself seems now impossible. ("If they cannot do it, then certainly I won't be able to.") As I said, I know nothing of this particular case - the reasons may well be entirely different.

Thanks Neto.

When I said they 'tend towards legalism', I was thinking of those who see themselves as 'kingdom Christians' but they are living in what they understand to be obedience to 'the rules' and not so much as obedience to the Lord. They don't have a personal relationship with the Lord and obey out of gratitude but rather have a life of law keeping to qualify to belong to that church group. Could also be called 'externalism'. And others add their own rules for obedience and add restrictions on people that are extra-biblical. Jesus got after the Pharisees for doing that sort of thing.

I agree that living according to some 'set of rules' is not the way to a deeper walk with God. There are people not in the 'kingdom Christian' category on this chart that have a close walk with the Lord in these churches as there is with those classified as 'kingdom Christian'. The opposite is also true for both categories.

God knows our hearts in what we believe and practice wherever we seek fellowship. It is His Church and someday we will be forced to accept those He considers His own. What a shock this might be for most, if not all, of us.

[PeterG]

The 'legalist' is attempting to gain favor with God (ultimately, salvation), while those who Ernie is calling 'kingdom Christians' are attempting to live lives of obedience to God because God has, in his great grace, given them salvation. Obedience is then viewed as evidence of the grace of God having been accepted & applied, because 'the one who is aware of his great sin loves more' (and love toward God is evidenced by obedience).

This is very well said!

I know nothing of the situation in the congregation being described here, but as an outsider to the culture here, I would say that the language difference, and just seeing the ease with which the 'insiders' relate to one another culturally may be some of the main factors in why 'seekers' wander away, why they feel that they will never really fit in.
I think that another factor may be related to something I went through myself, in my first attempt to 'go conservative', years before I met anyone from this community. I had the notion that living by a set of 'rules' might help me to have a deeper Christian life. It doesn't work that way because even though I was imposing the rules on my own self, no outside authority or pressure involved, it was not born of an inward change. I was attempting to achieve the inward change by adopting the outward regulations. That just doesn't work. It only creates guilt and hypocrisy.
The other thing is that the 'seeker' often comes with 'rose colored glasses' firmly placed over their eyes. Gradually the reality of the 'humanness' of the 'insiders' forces its way through to the eyes in such a way that the glasses are broken and useless to hide it anymore. Disillusionment follows, and the objective of achieving 'perfection' oneself seems now impossible. ("If they cannot do it, then certainly I won't be able to.") As I said, I know nothing of this particular case - the reasons may well be entirely different.

Also very well said. Much of this matches my experience of conservative Anabaptism over the past 25 years, and what I have observed in the lives of many "seekers" over that time.

[Wade]

Peter, in your observation what did discipling look like for these seekers?
Did they have a more seasoned or "successful"(in the sense of settling into being stable in the church) seeker help them out ever?
Did they have anyone they could confide in and relate to in this journey?
And since I think your moderate (please forgive me if I'm mistaken) did you notice more slack in acceptance towards temporal things discourage them? And how this play out in there own efforts towards these things?
I wonder if some of us seekers hinder or help the new seeker more or less at times and largely that seems to depend on at least some level of our experience, stability in Christ, and mostly how much willingness there is to deny self.

And of course I'd like to hear from Ernie on these questions too.
I have a seeker family Ive had relationship with for over 5 years and they seemed very hesitant to meet Mennonites. We've had a lot of discussions. Yesterday the husband told me they are applying for membership soon. So this is on my heart and I want to be sensitive here.

[PeterG]

Peter, in your observation what did discipling look like for these seekers?

Church members are often extra hospitable to seekers when they first start attending church. Seekers are often full of questions, and church members are generally happy to engage them in conversation (sometimes at great length!). Seekers may attend instruction class if they are still relatively unfamiliar with Anabaptist doctrine when they express interest in church membership. I'm not sure if that counts as discipling—I don't think conservative Anabaptists would usually think of it in that way—but that's what I've observed.

Did they have a more seasoned or "successful"(in the sense of settling into being stable in the church) seeker help them out ever?

Well...seekers who become successfully settled in the church are considerably rarer than those who don't. So not usually.

Did they have anyone they could confide in and relate to in this journey?

Often, yes, other seekers who were more or less experiencing the same things, and friendly church members.

And since I think your moderate (please forgive me if I'm mistaken) did you notice more slack in acceptance towards temporal things discourage them? And how this play out in there own efforts towards these things?

Yes, the churches I've been part of have been moderate conservative churches (including the one I'm currently a member of), although over the years I've had numerous connections along most of the Anabaptist spectrum (Western Fellowship, Eastern, Pilgrim, Keystone, AMEC, and Beachy, among others). I have definitely noticed seekers become discouraged by what they perceive as worldliness in less conservative groups. Such seekers have often responded by leaving to join more conservative groups. Sometimes they seem to settle down and find their home in these more conservative churches, but other times I've seen them continue to be disappointed as the reality of these churches fails to live up to their ideals. I have seen some of them abandon many of those ideals, and some have ended up at a far worse place than where they started.

In some ways this gets to the heart of what I appreciated about Neto's comments. I have seen so many seekers enter Mennonite churches out of a godly zeal to forsake the ways of the world and be more obedient to God and the Bible. They hope that becoming Mennonite will help them accomplish these goals. But too often they (and the Mennonites whose churches they join) put so much energy into becoming and being Mennonite that they forget that it's not the same thing as loving and following Jesus. I hope it is clear that I say these things with respect. I myself used to be one of these people, and in some ways I probably still am. These seekers are trying so hard, so tremendously hard, to do what is right and to please God. But becoming and being a good Mennonite is not a method for becoming a faithful Christian. Instead, being Mennonite, at its best, is a context within which we may be faithful Christians.

This is what I hope for our churches. I want them to be communities within which we follow Jesus together, regardless of where we have come from, with beliefs and practices that proceed out of that orientation and do not become ends in themselves. As far as I'm concerned, we don't even necessarily have to change any of our idiosyncratic conservative Anabaptist ways, although we may have to change the way we think about them.

Let me stress that I'm speaking out of my own observations and experiences. Others may see and experience things differently. And like Neto said, I don't know if any of this really applies to the situation Ernie mentioned.

I have a seeker family Ive had relationship with for over 5 years and they seemed very hesitant to meet Mennonites. We've had a lot of discussions. Yesterday the husband told me they are applying for membership soon. So this is on my heart and I want to be sensitive here.

God bless you in this, Wade! And I hope this family will find that church to be healthy community within which to serve God.

[Wade]

Thank you Peter.

[silentreader]

Peter, in your observation what did discipling look like for these seekers?

Church members are often extra hospitable to seekers when they first start attending church. Seekers are often full of questions, and church members are generally happy to engage them in conversation (sometimes at great length!). Seekers may attend instruction class if they are still relatively unfamiliar with Anabaptist doctrine when they express interest in church membership. I'm not sure if that counts as discipling—I don't think conservative Anabaptists would usually think of it in that way—but that's what I've observed.

Did they have a more seasoned or "successful"(in the sense of settling into being stable in the church) seeker help them out ever?

Well...seekers who become successfully settled in the church are considerably rarer than those who don't. So not usually.

Did they have anyone they could confide in and relate to in this journey?

Often, yes, other seekers who were more or less experiencing the same things, and friendly church members.

And since I think your moderate (please forgive me if I'm mistaken) did you notice more slack in acceptance towards temporal things discourage them? And how this play out in there own efforts towards these things?

Yes, the churches I've been part of have been moderate conservative churches (including the one I'm currently a member of), although over the years I've had numerous connections along most of the Anabaptist spectrum (Western Fellowship, Eastern, Pilgrim, Keystone, AMEC, and Beachy, among others). I have definitely noticed seekers become discouraged by what they perceive as worldliness in less conservative groups. Such seekers have often responded by leaving to join more conservative groups. Sometimes they seem to settle down and find their home in these more conservative churches, but other times I've seen them continue to be disappointed as the reality of these churches fails to live up to their ideals. I have seen some of them abandon many of those ideals, and some have ended up at a far worse place than where they started.

In some ways this gets to the heart of what I appreciated about Neto's comments. I have seen so many seekers enter Mennonite churches out of a godly zeal to forsake the ways of the world and be more obedient to God and the Bible. They hope that becoming Mennonite will help them accomplish these goals. But too often they (and the Mennonites whose churches they join) put so much energy into becoming and being Mennonite that they forget that it's not the same thing as loving and following Jesus. I hope it is clear that I say these things with respect. I myself used to be one of these people, and in some ways I probably still am. These seekers are trying so hard, so tremendously hard, to do what is right and to please God. But becoming and being a good Mennonite is not a method for becoming a faithful Christian. Instead, being Mennonite, at its best, is a context within which we may be faithful Christians.

This is what I hope for our churches. I want them to be communities within which we follow Jesus together, regardless of where we have come from, with beliefs and practices that proceed out of that orientation and do not become ends in themselves. As far as I'm concerned, we don't even necessarily have to change any of our idiosyncratic conservative Anabaptist ways, although we may have to change the way we think about them.

Let me stress that I'm speaking out of my own observations and experiences. Others may see and experience things differently. And like Neto said, I don't know if any of this really applies to the situation Ernie mentioned.

I have a seeker family Ive had relationship with for over 5 years and they seemed very hesitant to meet Mennonites. We've had a lot of discussions. Yesterday the husband told me they are applying for membership soon. So this is on my heart and I want to be sensitive here.

God bless you in this, Wade! And I hope this family will find that church to be healthy community within which to serve God.

I deeply appreciate your perspective, Peter.

[Ernie]

Here are few more of my thoughts on the topic or nurturing a church culture that inspires Christian growth.

Video:

Audio:

[Soloist]

Church members are often extra hospitable to seekers when they first start attending church. Seekers are often full of questions, and church members are generally happy to engage them in conversation (sometimes at great length!). Seekers may attend instruction class if they are still relatively unfamiliar with Anabaptist doctrine when they express interest in church membership. I'm not sure if that counts as discipling—I don't think conservative Anabaptists would usually think of it in that way—but that's what I've observed.

Well...seekers who become successfully settled in the church are considerably rarer than those who don't. So not usually.

In your experience, how many of these successful seekers actually came from after 2000?

In some ways this gets to the heart of what I appreciated about Neto's comments. I have seen so many seekers enter Mennonite churches out of a godly zeal to forsake the ways of the world and be more obedient to God and the Bible. They hope that becoming Mennonite will help them accomplish these goals. But too often they (and the Mennonites whose churches they join) put so much energy into becoming and being Mennonite that they forget that it's not the same thing as loving and following Jesus.

I think this is clear, and in many ways I think it ends up being a distraction at some point. Much is laid aside without actual spiritual gain. Meanwhile the CM's look at the laying aside things as spiritually gaining and then if the seekers pick up what they laid aside or stop practicing something the CM's see it as abandoning the faith. I would say we get quite zealous about following it and perhaps we are hunting for something to fill a need and initially it seems like the Mennonites have the answer and the practice to fix the problem. After the harsh reality sets in, there is a time of deciding what is actually believed and I think this time is when its the most likely to push someone away who finally has got past the "honeymoon" stage and is now seeing that they still have the same problems and haven't fixed anything. This sort of circles back to the discipleship problem where it seems like Mennonites have no clue how to disciple people other then their own children.

I hope it is clear that I say these things with respect. I myself used to be one of these people, and in some ways I probably still am. These seekers are trying so hard, so tremendously hard, to do what is right and to please God. But becoming and being a good Mennonite is not a method for becoming a faithful Christian. Instead, being Mennonite, at its best, is a context within which we may be faithful Christians.

Yes and I think its hard to actually accept that and maybe we lean to hard on works in response to the world...

This is what I hope for our churches. I want them to be communities within which we follow Jesus together, regardless of where we have come from, with beliefs and practices that proceed out of that orientation and do not become ends in themselves. As far as I'm concerned, we don't even necessarily have to change any of our idiosyncratic conservative Anabaptist ways, although we may have to change the way we think about them.

If you join a church in China, you will have the same problems but both sides will be more understanding. Why is it that the CM's and the seekers can't do the same here? the cultural gap is basically just as wide. obviously German speaking churches would fit that bill even better... but the English speaking don't realize how big of a gap the cultural communication nuances actually are. I'm only now starting to really understand that I don't understand them and they don't understand me. This has resulted in much pain.

[Josh]

I think this is clear, and in many ways I think it ends up being a distraction at some point. Much is laid aside without actual spiritual gain. Meanwhile the CM's look at the laying aside things as spiritually gaining and then if the seekers pick up what they laid aside or stop practicing something the CM's see it as abandoning the faith.

A conservative Mennonite church will think it is really wonderful when a seeker becomes a member and adopts a church standard such as, for example, wearing kapp-style coverings exclusively, or not using Internet at home.

They will also require this of new members, and shake their heads at seekers who give up and don't comply with these rules as being unwilling to achieve such spiritual gains.

Meanwhile, 5 or 10 years later, the exact same congregation might discern that home Internet is OK, or that veil-style coverings are now OK, and they expect a seeker to be as overjoyed as they are at this newfound freedom, and would not see any spiritual gain at all in their old seeker who insists that this shouldn't change or that sees dangers with changing traditions and boundaries.

This is the fundamental problem for the seeker who joins a fundamental-, progressive-, moderate-, or intermediate-conservative setting. Ultra-conservative settings don't seem to have this problem, as they usually seem to be on a path to finding ways to be even more strict than the past. I've noticed seekers are rare in ultra settings, but they also stay around forever and thrive there. Most seekers in moderate settings eventually move on to a different congregation.

[Wade]

I think this is clear, and in many ways I think it ends up being a distraction at some point. Much is laid aside without actual spiritual gain. Meanwhile the CM's look at the laying aside things as spiritually gaining and then if the seekers pick up what they laid aside or stop practicing something the CM's see it as abandoning the faith.

A conservative Mennonite church will think it is really wonderful when a seeker becomes a member and adopts a church standard such as, for example, wearing kapp-style coverings exclusively, or not using Internet at home.

They will also require this of new members, and shake their heads at seekers who give up and don't comply with these rules as being unwilling to achieve such spiritual gains.

Meanwhile, 5 or 10 years later, the exact same congregation might discern that home Internet is OK, or that veil-style coverings are now OK, and they expect a seeker to be as overjoyed as they are at this newfound freedom, and would not see any spiritual gain at all in their old seeker who insists that this shouldn't change or that sees dangers with changing traditions and boundaries.

This is the fundamental problem for the seeker who joins a fundamental-, progressive-, moderate-, or intermediate-conservative setting. Ultra-conservative settings don't seem to have this problem, as they usually seem to be on a path to finding ways to be even more strict than the past. I've noticed seekers are rare in ultra settings, but they also stay around forever and thrive there. Most seekers in moderate settings eventually move on to a different congregation.

Rare in an ultra setting - yes. Impossible - no. I think Soloist touched on something that is critical and that is discipleship and how it is treated - being nice and inviting people over isn't discipleship. When trust is established and after we have made ourselves open and vulnerable the hard truths of scripture need to be addressed. It is incredibly intense and takes a lot of time. There are a couple seekers who attend our ultra setting (besides my family), one of those seekers has brought a friend who told me last week he is no doubt coming again. A couple more have asked to come but haven't with COVID restrictions.
One of those seekers who has never attended is asking to come to a work bee when two months ago he was a homeless addict living common law... He's now living on our property and working with this man has been incredibly intense with lots of crying. I'm settled that working with seekers is going to be very messy and unless we make ourselves vulnerable and are ready to confront people lovingly on things it just isn't going to work very well if at all.