David Brooks in The Atlantic: "America Is Having a Moral Convulsion"

[Ken]

Excellent post HK. Where I struggle with insight into my own biases, is that I cannot unsee a pretty clear link between a leaning on the right towards traditionalism, and the left trending towards moral freedom / individualism

How do you reconcile this statement with the pandemic, which is easily the biggest single issue this country has faced in this century. It's mostly the left that has argued for conformity and made compliance with health guidelines a traditional moral issue, while the right has argued for moral freedom, individualism, and outright defiance with respect to things like masks, social distancing, vaccines, and so forth.

[nett]

Excellent post HK. Where I struggle with insight into my own biases, is that I cannot unsee a pretty clear link between a leaning on the right towards traditionalism, and the left trending towards moral freedom / individualism

How do you reconcile this statement with the pandemic, which is easily the biggest single issue this country has faced in this century. It's mostly the left that has argued for conformity and made compliance with health guidelines a traditional moral issue, while the right has argued for moral freedom, individualism, and outright defiance with respect to things like masks, social distancing, vaccines, and so forth.

I think we have enough COVID related threads. Suffice to say, I don't allow my life to be defined by fearing death. I'm COVID anti-body positive (according to local health dept), but if I'm asked to wear a mask by individuals, I will.

The left stands for things like late term abortions, publicly funded gender re-assignment surgeries for mentally ill people, hormone therapy for toddlers, drag queen reading hours for children, sex-ed to encourage promiscuous fornication among teenagers, and teaching in school that we evolved from a primordial soup.

Corporatists have both parties (eg. BLM support), so it's not worth pointing out the obvious flaws on the right, they're uinversal. The right just doesn't support the landslide of moral degeneracy.

[barnhart]

I'm not sure how I got lumped in with David exactly...

I rather recklessley lumped you with David as one who believes the answer to social woes is to recreate social customs of the past.

Barnhart, I cannot see what is so wrong or un-Anabaptst or un-Kingdom Christian or un-NT Christian about working towards the rebuilding of trust in the society that you find yourself living in.

I think those are admirable goals. Where we likely differ is in how these things are best fostered.

[HondurasKeiser]

I'm not sure how I got lumped in with David exactly...

I rather recklessley lumped you with David as one who believes the answer to social woes is to recreate social customs of the past.

I wonder what antiquated and passé social customs you think I (or Mr. Brooks?) would like to recreate?

[temporal1]

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Ken:
I read the article and I'm kind of skeptical of the overall thesis. Statistics are easily gamed and cherry picked. On a whole lot of levels, society is doing better. For example, anti-social behavior like violent crime and property crime has plummeted since the 1990s which was Brook's "high water mark." Here is Brooks glorifying the 1990s as his high water mark: .. ..

It’s impossible to begin to compare statistics over time without knowing how the processes of collecting the stats compare. The changing processes/parameters may make it akin to comparing apples to potatoes.

We agree on that much.
Then you immediately jump to current charts, presuming data was collected in a controlled/regulated manner over time. i presume not.

[temporal1]

I think we have enough COVID related threads. Suffice to say, I don't allow my life to be defined by fearing death. I'm COVID anti-body positive (according to local health dept), but if I'm asked to wear a mask by individuals, I will.

The left stands for things like late term abortions, publicly funded gender re-assignment surgeries for mentally ill people, hormone therapy for toddlers, drag queen reading hours for children, sex-ed to encourage promiscuous fornication among teenagers, and teaching in school that we evolved from a primordial soup.

Corporatists have both parties (eg. BLM support), so it's not worth pointing out the obvious flaws on the right, they're uinversal.

The right just doesn't support the landslide of moral degeneracy.

In summary ..

[Ken]

Page 1

Ken:
I read the article and I'm kind of skeptical of the overall thesis. Statistics are easily gamed and cherry picked. On a whole lot of levels, society is doing better. For example, anti-social behavior like violent crime and property crime has plummeted since the 1990s which was Brook's "high water mark." Here is Brooks glorifying the 1990s as his high water mark: .. ..

It’s impossible to begin to compare statistics over time without knowing how the processes of collecting the stats compare. The changing processes/parameters may make it akin to comparing apples to potatoes.

We agree on that much.
Then you immediately jump to current charts, presuming data was collected in a controlled/regulated manner over time. i presume not.

I wasn't making the argument that everything is better today than in the past. I actually tend to think that human nature doesn't really change all that much over time I was just stating that I'm skeptical of Brook's argument which was based entirely on some public opinion survey of beliefs about trust. I just threw out some random statistics to show how there is a lot of contrary data about actual behavior that would argue against Brooks' thesis.

[PetrChelcicky]

My personal angle is not so much "liberty" than "liberality". I must not have liberty myself at all costs, but I am inclined to grant liberty to others. Peace relies on our ability to grant liberty to each other. In this I will not change (not even for to avoid a "moral convulsion").

[temporal1]

My personal angle is not so much "liberty" than "liberality".
I must not have liberty myself at all costs, but I am inclined to grant liberty to others.

Peace relies on our ability to grant liberty to each other.
In this I will not change (not even for to avoid a "moral convulsion").

[Bootstrap]

Barnhart, I cannot see what is so wrong or un-Anabaptst or un-Kingdom Christian or un-NT Christian about working towards the rebuilding of trust in the society that you find yourself living in.

I preached on Jeremiah 29 this morning.

This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.”

I don't think Babylon is God's Holy City, but I would certainly seek its peace and prosperity and pray for it. And serve it.