In-Group vs. Out-Group

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HondurasKeiser
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In-Group vs. Out-Group

Post by HondurasKeiser »

I wonder if anyone would be interested in discussing this essay published on the Slate Star Codex blog? It was written in 2014 but I was led to it in an Alan Jacobs post today. Both posts deal with in-group/out-group dynamics and how easily we find ourselves thinking in those terms. Jacobs comes down hard on his fellow conservative Christians and Alexander criticizes fellow liberals for as he describes it:
...boasting of being able to tolerate everyone from every outgroup they can imagine, loving the outgroup, writing long paeans to how great the outgroup is, staying up at night fretting that somebody else might not like the outgroup enough.

This is really surprising. It’s a total reversal of everything we know about human psychology up to this point. No one did any genetic engineering. No one passed out weird glowing pills in the public schools. And yet suddenly we get an entire group of people who conspicuously promote and defend their outgroups, the outer the better.
He goes on to talk at great length at what is occurring in one of the political tribes within the United States, a tribe with which he identifies broadly-speaking. In the end though he realizes he has engaged in much of the same behavior that he accuses his tribe of:
I had fun writing this article. People do not have fun writing articles savagely criticizing their in-group. People can criticize their in-group, it’s not humanly impossible, but it takes nerves of steel, it makes your blood boil, you should sweat blood. It shouldn’t be fun.
You can bet some white guy on Gawker who week after week churns out “Why White People Are So Terrible” and “Here’s What Dumb White People Don’t Understand” is having fun and not sweating any blood at all. He’s not criticizing his in-group, he’s never even considered criticizing his in-group. I can’t blame him. Criticizing the in-group is a really difficult project I’ve barely begun to build the mental skills necessary to even consider.

I can think of criticisms of my own tribe. Important criticisms, true ones. But the thought of writing them makes my blood boil....That is how I feel when asked to criticize my own tribe, even for correct reasons. If you think you’re criticizing your own tribe, and your blood is not at that temperature, consider the possibility that you aren’t.
I should say from the beginning that I dont have a problem with in-groups and out-groups as such. They are inevitable to a certain degree and part of what make life interesting, comfortable and enjoyable. I do think though it is important to engage in true self-criticism with respect to our own in-groups and to avoid the pitfalls that Jacobs is observing in American Christianity:
We are looking here at the consequences of decades of neglect by American churches, and what they have neglected is Christian formation. The whole point of discipleship — which is, nota bene, a word derived from discipline — is to take what Kant called the “crooked timber of humanity” and make it, if not straight, then straighter. To form it in the image of Jesus Christ. And yes, with humans this is impossible, but with a gracious God all things are possible. And it’s a good thing that with a gracious God it is possible, because He demands it of those who would follow Jesus. Bonhoeffer says, “When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die.” He doesn’t bid us demand our rights. Indeed he forbids us to. “Love is patient and kind,” his apostle tells us; “love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.” Christians haven’t always met that description, but there was a time when we knew that it existed, which made it harder to avoid.
As a coda I should add that at a personal level there was time in my life, something like 10-15 years ago where I truly felt like my Anabaptism, tightly held, was a strong critique of in-groups in American society more generally, both Right and Left. I felt neither conservative nor liberal nor moderate and I credited Anabaptism with giving me an outsider's perspective with which to stand outside the system and critique the whole lot as misguided. That seems all muddled to me now; Anabaptists are just as entrenched in societal groups and just as susceptible to in-group blind-spots. Much of my thinking, reading and writing these past few years has been spent trying to work that fact out.
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Ms. Izzie
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Re: In-Group vs. Out-Group

Post by Ms. Izzie »

HondurasKeiser wrote:Anabaptists are just as entrenched in societal groups and just as susceptible to in-group blind-spots
I agree.

In order to critique your in-group, a person must have the ability to stand a bit apart from his/her own people, or tribe, if you will. A blind-spot is created when a person is so much a part of his own tribe that he has no concept or desire to know of life outside of his tribe/bubble.

I am still mulling over what was written in the linked posts by Jacobs and Alexander.
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steve-in-kville
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Re: In-Group vs. Out-Group

Post by steve-in-kville »

Ms. Izzie wrote:
HondurasKeiser wrote:Anabaptists are just as entrenched in societal groups and just as susceptible to in-group blind-spots
I agree.

In order to critique your in-group, a person must have the ability to stand a bit apart from his/her own people, or tribe, if you will. A blind-spot is created when a person is so much a part of his own tribe that he has no concept or desire to know of life outside of his tribe/bubble.

I am still mulling over what was written in the linked posts by Jacobs and Alexander.
Just so I understand the nature of this topic, would the term "cliques" apply here?
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ohio jones
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Re: In-Group vs. Out-Group

Post by ohio jones »

Ms. Izzie wrote:
HondurasKeiser wrote:Anabaptists are just as entrenched in societal groups and just as susceptible to in-group blind-spots
I agree.

In order to critique your in-group, a person must have the ability to stand a bit apart from his/her own people, or tribe, if you will. A blind-spot is created when a person is so much a part of his own tribe that he has no concept or desire to know of life outside of his tribe/bubble.

I am still mulling over what was written in the linked posts by Jacobs and Alexander.
I wonder if trying to stand apart from two other identifiable groups doesn't just create a new solitary in-group, with the others merged into your own personal out-group.

But whether your in-group is solitary or a broader tribe, everyone does still have blind spots (as my favorite carpenter calls them, "beams"). The way to correct that is to build relationships with people in the out-group who, while they have beams of their own, can see what you can't.
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Josh
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Re: In-Group vs. Out-Group

Post by Josh »

steve-in-kville wrote:Just so I understand the nature of this topic, would the term "cliques" apply here?
I think he's talking about something at larger scale than that. Generally, cliques only happen inside your in-group. To the out-group, they'd be basically incomprehensible.
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Ms. Izzie
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Re: In-Group vs. Out-Group

Post by Ms. Izzie »

ohiojones wrote:I wonder if trying to stand apart from two other identifiable groups doesn't just create a new solitary in-group, with the others merged into your own personal out-group.

But whether your in-group is solitary or a broader tribe, everyone does still have blind spots (as my favorite carpenter calls them, "beams"). The way to correct that is to build relationships with people in the out-group who, while they have beams of their own, can see what you can't.
I can see what you are saying, although, I believe there are people among us who are called to critique their in-group as an attempt to save the group as a whole. I thought of the critiques that Chester Weaver has brought to people's attention. There are things within tribes which can eventually lead to self-destruction. If a person waits until he, himself, has no beams or blind-spots, well, he might never get to the critique which could right the ship. Maybe it is the spirit in which it is done and the purpose for the critique that matters?
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Josh
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Re: In-Group vs. Out-Group

Post by Josh »

For a live example of this, look at Wade and myself over in the “Creating suspicion” thread.
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AnthonyMartin
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Re: In-Group vs. Out-Group

Post by AnthonyMartin »

I found the Alexander article very interesting, thank you for sharing. I greatly connected with shaping perceptions of others into in-groups and out-groups based on our assumptions of that which we perceive as really right, and what is really wrong. It did seem to me that as he worked out his conclusions that he seemed to be striving to hold on to the assumption that "tolerance" is still the guiding virtue. In the beginning of XI he even points this out as a weakness, but seems to double down on tolerance as the guiding virtue.

I'm not sure I can clearly grasp what his driving motivation is with the article. It seems that he stayed with tolerance as the guiding virtue, but overall the article seemed to me to be a critic of tolerance and supports the idea of guiding truth and absolute goodness as a better guide for virtue than tolerance.

Do you think I misunderstood the article?

I identify with this:
HondurasKeiser wrote:As a coda I should add that at a personal level there was time in my life, something like 10-15 years ago where I truly felt like my Anabaptism, tightly held, was a strong critique of in-groups in American society more generally, both Right and Left. I felt neither conservative nor liberal nor moderate and I credited Anabaptism with giving me an outsider's perspective with which to stand outside the system and critique the whole lot as misguided. That seems all muddled to me now; Anabaptists are just as entrenched in societal groups and just as susceptible to in-group blind-spots. Much of my thinking, reading and writing these past few years has been spent trying to work that fact out.
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Neto
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Re: In-Group vs. Out-Group

Post by Neto »

If this discussion is about cultural differences, and "culture clash", then I'd just remark that it isn't so much about thinking that ?my culture is right, and all others are wrong", but rather that "my culture is better". Maybe that sounds ethnocentric, but that is because it is. I would maintain, however, that unless you think your own culture is better, you will not hold onto it, but abandon it for one you think is better. But culture change is rarely a whole-sale abandonment of one's own culture, and the attempt to adopt another, one that is perceived as better. Cultures are in constant change (healthy ones, anyway, in my opinion), and sometimes an adopted change turns out to have far reaching effects which were not anticipated. Even something as seemingly harmless as adopting literateness in ones mother tongue can result in the death of that language. It doesn't have to, but it can place that language into a position of pronounced conflict with the dominant language (majority language, or national language, etc.) by placing them into the same sphere of use.
In mission work (as informed by familiarity with the fields of anthropology & ethnology) we can evaluate which might be called the central theme or focus of the culture, and work in ways to place Christ at the center, replacing the former center. That can sound brutal and even like "ethnocide", but that is (again, in my opinion) the only way a culture will truly be transformed into a God-honoring one.
In reference to being able to offer critique for one's own culture (or in-group), in my experience nothing did this more adequately than becoming immersed in another (significantly different) culture. (I confess that I do not feel that I really got to that point in Brazilian culture - we were too tied up in the Banawa culture. Maybe it isn't possible to do this in two cultures at the same time. But I would also say that my LACK of acculturation into the Brazilian way of life may have actually given me more credence with the Banawa Indians, and balanced my "otherness" as an "Americano", and as a "Branco", to the extent that I was rarely referred to as an "outsider".) But I am not an "insider" here, either, so anything I say is an outsider's critique. Maybe anyone who has had prolonged exposure to another culture (with a favorable attitude) will, in the eyes of his or her own in-group, be considered somewhat as an outsider. (I am assuming that this type of exposure will probably always result in changes to one's own cultural viewpoint, because I cannot imagine that some element of the other culture will not show itself to be better than the counterpart in one's own birth culture. If that influence grows, such as if you become an effective "change agent", as a "sponsor" of culture change, a large part of the culture will also change. One thing is sure, any living culture will change in some way or another. Even a revitalization movement is culture change, partly because of the way in which the cultural element whose restoration is being sought after is changed in meaning, but also because the cultural element which is the focus of the movement will probably displace another core cultural value or focus.)
Sorry for going on and on about this. Once I get started, I cannot seem to stop. As my 6 year old grandson says, "My pawgies."
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