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Re: Using Scripture's terms and phrases

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:34 pm
by JimFoxvog
Bootstrap wrote:Are there Bible translations that use the words "kids" and "cool"? Which ones?

See my previous post for "kids".
Cool? Probably not in the meaning of hip or fine. But The Message uses the word lots of times.
Here's two examples:
Psalm 27:3
When besieged, I’m calm as a baby. When all hell breaks loose, I’m collected and cool.

and
Proverbs 15:18 Hot tempers start fights; a calm, cool spirit keeps the peace.

See https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=cool&qs_version=MSG for a full list.

Re: Using Scripture's terms and phrases

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:56 pm
by Adam
I appreciate it when people use regular everyday words that people are familiar with and can easily understand. Some translations in English use words that can be quite difficult for the average person to understand (propitiation, expiation, justification, fornication, etc.). I always appreciate it when someone can explain difficult or uncommon words with simple, clear English.

I remember before I was a Christian there was a young man who was witnessing to me, and he told me that he used to 'fornicate' with models. The word struck me as very odd and made me think that he must be a part of a cult (which I define here as 'a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister'). 'Fornicate' is a biblical word, but it is a strange word to most and many people won't actually know what it means although they will know it has something to do with inappropriate sex. A lot of people don't even realize that fornication is a sin anymore. If he had said, "The Bible tells us not to have sex before marriage, but I used to break that commandment," it would have sounded much less strange to me, and I probably would have been more open to what he was telling me.

One of the things I love about David Bercot's books is how simple and clear his communication is. He doesn't use difficult academic words to get his point across, and I think his message is much clearer as a result. Compare that to Verduin's book The Anatomy of a Hybrid and you will see a huge difference. The message conveyed in Verduin's book is great if you can get past the highly academic language. I would appreciate the same book being communicated in simple, straightforward language.

It is difficult to talk about using Scripture's terms for things when there are such a wide variety of translations being used, and the more literal the translation, the more you have difficult words like propitiation, expiation, etc. More important than the specific words you use is the clarity of your communication. We need to continually define what we mean by the terms we use because it is so easy for another person to assign a different meaning to a term than we do.

Re: Using Scripture's terms and phrases

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:21 am
by KingdomBuilder
I'm not impressed with people who push the KJV or its lingo. At Bible study, a fellow told me "If you really want to read God's word, read the King James. It's the original; not a translation"

:roll:

Re: Using Scripture's terms and phrases

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:45 pm
by Bootstrap
Adam wrote:One of the things I love about David Bercot's books is how simple and clear his communication is. He doesn't use difficult academic words to get his point across, and I think his message is much clearer as a result. Compare that to Verduin's book The Anatomy of a Hybrid and you will see a huge difference. The message conveyed in Verduin's book is great if you can get past the highly academic language. I would appreciate the same book being communicated in simple, straightforward language.


I'm not always good at it, but I agree that clear and simple language is important if we want to communicate.

Adam wrote:It is difficult to talk about using Scripture's terms for things when there are such a wide variety of translations being used, and the more literal the translation, the more you have difficult words like propitiation, expiation, etc. More important than the specific words you use is the clarity of your communication. We need to continually define what we mean by the terms we use because it is so easy for another person to assign a different meaning to a term than we do.


Yes, I do agree with that. Still, if we are discussing what the Bible says, I really prefer to use concepts found directly in the Bible, in whatever translation, instead of building our own systematic theologies using our own language and concepts.

Re: Using Scripture's terms and phrases

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:12 pm
by MaxPC
Adam wrote:
We need to continually define what we mean by the terms we use because it is so easy for another person to assign a different meaning to a term than we do.

I feel the same way. When introducing new believers to the message of Christ, unncessarily complicated vocabulary can confuse and deter them.

Yet one of the reasons I bought the very expensive Navarre Bible in the multi-volume set is the fact that it's an all-inclusive morphological and syntactic approach & commentary which does an exhaustive correlation between the Bible, our Catechism, documents of Church Fathers, and offers the Latin as well as the RSV-CE to make it easier to cross reference with Douay Rheims and critical documents that haven't been translated from Latin yet. Even with the multiple volumes, it still takes up less space on the shelves than having the references in dedicated tomes. It's not a Bible for casual reading but is a go-to for more exhaustive scholarship.

I think different translations have their own best audiences.

Re: Using Scripture's terms and phrases

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:59 pm
by Wade
MaxPC wrote:
Adam wrote:
We need to continually define what we mean by the terms we use because it is so easy for another person to assign a different meaning to a term than we do.

I feel the same way. When introducing new believers to the message of Christ, unnecessarily complicated vocabulary can confuse and deter them.

:up:
This happens even with simple terms too, that are not properly defined. For example I was always told growing up that the definition of anyone born-again was all the people that wanted to stuff their religious beliefs down your throat and were self-righteous.
Since I grew up an atheist - I see these misunderstandings very often being able to understand and relate to these new believers because of background, while those that weren't can at times jump to silly conclusions about the new believer because of a misunderstanding of a single term...
Sometimes it ends up in cutting others down rather than trying to help with defining terms and encouraging... :? It is like watching the things I went and am going through being continually repeated...
Sad and discouraging.

Re: Using Scripture's terms and phrases

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:20 pm
by MaxPC
Wade wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
Adam wrote:
We need to continually define what we mean by the terms we use because it is so easy for another person to assign a different meaning to a term than we do.

I feel the same way. When introducing new believers to the message of Christ, unnecessarily complicated vocabulary can confuse and deter them.

:up:
This happens even with simple terms too, that are not properly defined. For example I was always told growing up that the definition of anyone born-again was all the people that wanted to stuff their religious beliefs down your throat and were self-righteous.
Since I grew up an atheist - I see these misunderstandings very often being able to understand and relate to these new believers because of background, while those that weren't can at times jump to silly conclusions about the new believer because of a misunderstanding of a single term...
Sometimes it ends up in cutting others down rather than trying to help with defining terms and encouraging... :? It is like watching the things I went and am going through being continually repeated...
Sad and discouraging.

Indeed, it is. Another thing that deters new believers is the petty nitpicking that goes on between those who consider themselves scholars. These individuals imagine scholarship is more important than the daily living of discipleship. Scholarly snobbery is more widespread than it should be and helps no one. It only serves to puff up egos rather than enlighten and encourage a person in his walk with Christ.

The number of reliable English translations available should be able to reach every English speaking individual "who hath an ear to hear" what the Holy Spirit is saying.

Re: Using Scripture's terms and phrases

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:02 am
by Wayne in Maine
Adam wrote:I appreciate it when people use regular everyday words that people are familiar with and can easily understand. Some translations in English use words that can be quite difficult for the average person to understand (propitiation, expiation, justification, fornication, etc.). I always appreciate it when someone can explain difficult or uncommon words with simple, clear English.

I remember before I was a Christian there was a young man who was witnessing to me, and he told me that he used to 'fornicate' with models. The word struck me as very odd and made me think that he must be a part of a cult (which I define here as 'a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister'). 'Fornicate' is a biblical word, but it is a strange word to most and many people won't actually know what it means although they will know it has something to do with inappropriate sex. A lot of people don't even realize that fornication is a sin anymore. If he had said, "The Bible tells us not to have sex before marriage, but I used to break that commandment," it would have sounded much less strange to me, and I probably would have been more open to what he was telling me.

One of the things I love about David Bercot's books is how simple and clear his communication is. He doesn't use difficult academic words to get his point across, and I think his message is much clearer as a result. Compare that to Verduin's book The Anatomy of a Hybrid and you will see a huge difference. The message conveyed in Verduin's book is great if you can get past the highly academic language. I would appreciate the same book being communicated in simple, straightforward language.

It is difficult to talk about using Scripture's terms for things when there are such a wide variety of translations being used, and the more literal the translation, the more you have difficult words like propitiation, expiation, etc. More important than the specific words you use is the clarity of your communication. We need to continually define what we mean by the terms we use because it is so easy for another person to assign a different meaning to a term than we do.

The simple fact is that the original writings which comprise the books of the bible used common language rather than technical-religious words. We create something artificial and often something likely not intended by the original author when we use archaic language or transliterated words like Evangelize, Gospel, Bishop, Baptize, Salvation, etc.

Re: Using Scripture's terms and phrases

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:25 am
by temporal1
Wayne, you remind of an MD thread, "Bible Speak," which had some helpful posts on this very thing.
later, it occurred to me, there is actually, "Menno Speak," as well as many other forms of learning religious "language lingo," which do not always reflect the Spirit.

there is more to Jesus Christ than learning "code" language. "code" is not of the Spirit.

Re: Using Scripture's terms and phrases

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:38 am
by Josh
MaxPC wrote:
Adam wrote:
We need to continually define what we mean by the terms we use because it is so easy for another person to assign a different meaning to a term than we do.

I feel the same way. When introducing new believers to the message of Christ, unncessarily complicated vocabulary can confuse and deter them.

Yet one of the reasons I bought the very expensive Navarre Bible in the multi-volume set is the fact that it's an all-inclusive morphological and syntactic approach & commentary which does an exhaustive correlation between the Bible, our Catechism, documents of Church Fathers, and offers the Latin as well as the RSV-CE to make it easier to cross reference with Douay Rheims and critical documents that haven't been translated from Latin yet. Even with the multiple volumes, it still takes up less space on the shelves than having the references in dedicated tomes. It's not a Bible for casual reading but is a go-to for more exhaustive scholarship.

I think different translations have their own best audiences.


Why is it important to cross reference with catechisms, documents that are only in Latin etc.?

Why is a foundation other than the Bible needed? The Bible wasn't written in Latin, so I see no need to be concerned with what a Latin translation of the Bible said.