White Fragility - Diangelo

[GaryK]

I disagree with quite a bit of the article in the original post and some other things that Joshua has been posting lately,

I would be interested in hearing what exactly you don't agree with about the article and some other things Joshua has been posting.

[Grace]

An honest move toward integration in education with equal opportunity.

Who are the people opposed equal opportunity in education? Who is it that wants to keep black children in their failing schools, forcing them to attend the school in their “district”? Who is opposed to school choice? That would be the Democrats. BTW, DJT is for school choice.

Financial investment/banking opportunities for people of color.

Why it that banks might not trust people of color? Is it because they pose a higher risk? Some years back we rented to a low income mother under Section 8 housing. Turns out she was a drug seller and trashed the apartment. We found out later, that the scenario we experienced happens more often than not. That was the first and last Section 8 rental.

Start actually honestly listening to people of color and the points made by Black Lives Matter etc

Black Live do matter, but when they chant violent phrases against the very police that are protecting them while they march, don’t expect the people to listen to them.

Stop listening to Hannity, Limbaugh, and Fox news.

How are they any different than Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright, and Black Live Matter. All take things to the extreme.

As for reparations, how much would be enough? My belief is that it would never be enough. And on a personal level, how do I respond to my friend’s unkind words about non-white people and who works at a local discount grocery store, which accepts the EBT card. People of color come into the store and load up their carts with sugary drinks, junk foods, prepared and processed frozen meals, then whip out their EBT cards to pay for it. It upsets her, because she feels they are taking advantage of the tax payers who pay for their junk food.

And how should I feel when I walk the streets of Lancaster and in the non-white communities, the people can’t even pick up the trash outside their homes? The local park is strewn with trash when there are trash cans a few feet away?

And how do I respond to another friend who works in an inner city hospital, who says non-whites are so much harder to work with and always come with an entitlement mentality?

This is reality and is played out all across this nation. Are we racists because we notice?

[Josh]

I specifically mentioned DJT because many many conservative Anabaptists voted for him...

You'll have 100% agreement from me that Christians can't get involved in voting and politics, because it results in precisely these kind of problems.

My larger point there is that I don't think it is ideal for Anabaptists, and this is an Anabaptist board, to be politically active.

I agree with you there too. But that means almost entirely "opting out" of a lot of the things like Coates or DiAngelo proposes, since they propose what is essentially political solutions.

[GaryK]

Ok...I'll note a few things.

At a macro level it includes things like:

1) Prison reform and a legal system reform are a must (I already provided reading material to back this up)
2) An honest move toward integration in education with equal opportunity
3) Removing immediately all confederate statues, symbols, southern hero worship (Lee, Jackson, et al), Rebel flags (I have seen numerous Anabaptist youth sporting rebel flags), in a conservative church I visited the boy beside my son in SS drew one on his quarterly.
4) Honest police reform
5) Immigration reform
6) Financial investment/banking opportunities for people of color
7) Honest investment in educating the wider white culture on the topics we have been discussing
8) Honestly studying how to do reparations

At a micro level:

1) Start actually honestly listening to people of color and the points made by Black Lives Matter etc
2) Stop the victim blaming/shaming...confront all racial joking/stereotypes
3) Stop with the judging of cultural expressions and reject ethnocentrism (for instance don't condemn black music as was reportedly done at an Anabaptist convention Asher Witmer was at...and I myself have been the recipient of such stereotypical views of music, dance, etc).
4) Start working across the street corner with the church of color
5) Stop voting for DJT (or anybody else)
6) Stop listening to Hannity, Limbaugh, and Fox news.
7) Start also reading books and articles by people of color

Would doing all this end racism in either the classical or modern sense? This seems to not address what is at the core of racism/oppression - evil, sinful hearts as seen throughout the history of humanity.

I think some of these things really do help us relate better to black people. If you listen to race-baiting media, it affects you emotionally and in your heart. It's not a conscious process. I think we are all more easily influenced than we like to admit.

I especially like this suggestion:

4) Start working across the street corner with the church of color

To me, building relationships in Christ is probably the very best way to get past hardness of heart. Working together on some ministry is one of the very best ways to do that.

I agree. A few years ago the family of the boy (white) I was mentoring in our local school system and their black neighbor lady were at each others throats all the time, calling the police on each other, etc.. I contacted the black pastor of the church the neighbor was attending and asked if he would be willing to work with me to try and resolve the issue. He said he would be glad to but before we could get everyone together the neighbor moved away. But I can tell that the pastor and I have a deeper relationship as a result. I also regularly advertise in the annual publication of one of the black churches. Good connections have been formed as a result.

[Josh]

Who are the people opposed equal opportunity in education? Who is it that wants to keep black children in their failing schools, forcing them to attend the school in their “district”? Who is opposed to school choice? That would be the Democrats. BTW, DJT is for school choice.

My response has been to support schools like Tidings of Peace Christian School in York, PA. As Christians, we can't do much to reform/fix the public school system. We can provide very good alternatives.

Financial investment/banking opportunities for people of color.

I'm a bit confused on this one too, but perhaps it's because I'm also suspicious of loading people down with lots of debt. In America, people of colour have complete access to banking services and bank accounts.

As Christians, if we want to provide alternatives, support a local credit union that strives to be as equitable as possible. For us Anabaptists, a great solution is Everence, which has transparency and accountability in their efforts to live out certain Anabaptist values.

As for reparations, how much would be enough? My belief is that it would never be enough. And on a personal level, how do I respond to my friend’s unkind words about non-white people and who works at a local discount grocery store, which accepts the EBT card. People of color come into the store and load up their carts with sugary drinks, junk foods, prepared and processed frozen meals, then whip out their EBT cards to pay for it. It upsets her, because she feels they are taking advantage of the tax payers who pay for their junk food.

And how should I feel when I walk the streets of Lancaster and in the non-white communities, the people can’t even pick up the trash outside their homes? The local park is strewn with trash when there are trash cans a few feet away?

And how do I respond to another friend who works in an inner city hospital, who says non-whites are so much harder to work with and always come with an entitlement mentality?

This is reality and is played out all across this nation. Are we racists because we notice?

This is worthy of its own thread, and I think a few of us (joshuabgood, Bootstrap, myself) should take this seriously and think about how to provide real answers. If we don't, some very unsavory sources will provide answers. "You're a racist" or "you've got white fragility" is not an answer.

[GaryK]

Ok...I'll note a few things.

At a macro level it includes things like:

1) Prison reform and a legal system reform are a must (I already provided reading material to back this up)

The irony is not lost on me that under the leadership of the one person you specifically tell America not to vote for, #1 in the macro list is happening. When people like Van Jones give credit to the president for seeing this through I think that says something.

The right-wing Koch Brothers and left-wing ACLU created a coalition that was responsible for a lot of this, Jared Kushner was also a driver. I think there is growing consensus for this across the political spectrum. It's important.

Trump did sign the bill, and we should give him credit for that. But he has also done a whole lot of race-baiting, and racial resentment has been a big part of his campaign strategy all along. We should not be blind to that.

Red herring?

[Bootstrap]

I disagree with quite a bit of the article in the original post and some other things that Joshua has been posting lately,

I would be interested in hearing what exactly you don't agree with about the article and some other things Joshua has been posting.

Let's start here: "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander".

Racial stereotypes and race-baiting are a problem no matter who is doing it. I really do not buy the idea that blacks cannot be racist because of the power differential. Racism is racism.

Discussions of race are difficult and uncomfortable for good reasons, we should acknowledge that discomfort and face up to it. But we do not need to be ashamed for being uncomfortable. And we certainly do not need to be ashamed for being white. It's perfectly OK to be any color. In any discussion of race, blacks and whites should each get to say what they feel and experience. If some program tells us what we actually think and feel, whether or not we do, that's a problem. And some race sensitivity training programs do just that, telling me what whites think and feel.

I do think the concept of "white fragility" is useful. In many settings, it is impossible to have a serious discussion of anything related to race because whites might feel accused of racism or racial insensitivity. So we set up ground rules that say we must not discuss these things and blacks should just plain shut up. Bring in a few talk show hosts to riff on that and they can really whip up some racial resentment, which politicians can then use.

I don't like the idea of reparations. I do like the idea of setting up systems of equal opportunity, with equally good schools and equally good policing. I also like the idea of class-based affirmative action programs that treat white poverty and black poverty the same way.

[joshuabgood]

Who are the people opposed equal opportunity in education? Who is it that wants to keep black children in their failing schools, forcing them to attend the school in their “district”? Who is opposed to school choice? That would be the Democrats.

Yes. That is why, despite Josh's characterizations, this is not a "left/right" issue.

Why it that banks might not trust people of color? Is it because they pose a higher risk? Some years back we rented to a low income mother under Section 8 housing. Turns out she was a drug seller and trashed the apartment. We found out later, that the scenario we experienced happens more often than not. That was the first and last Section 8 rental.

Not to be pushy, but if you read the Coates article I posted it outlines the discriminatory process or redlining that occurred. And I am not here to argue with personal anecdotes, though as you know, they should be extrapolated with care. Once upon a time I had two rental properties in southern IN and I got burned similarly by white people.

Black Live do matter, but when they chant violent phrases against the very police that are protecting them while they march, don’t expect the people to listen to them.

People of color have different experiences with police than you and I do. I am not surprised they carry the anger that they do, though I don't support yelling or violent phrases directed at police. There are many reasons why. Like I mentioned in the other thread it took 37 years for LE and the Legal system to convict white people of the church bombing despite the fact everyone knew who did it. (I don't have time but I could give you some real stories about NYPD Precinct 75 that I observed personally that were extremely problematic). What I am advocating for is understanding and hearing them. Historically black lives haven't mattered in this society. That really hurts when it is your son or father wrongfully executed or killed by the police. Like Sharpton said, they aren't anti-police they are anti-police brutality.

How are they any different than Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright, and Black Live Matter. All take things to the extreme.

They all would espouse things that I wouldn't agree with. That said, we err on hearing only white culture (the culture of power) viewpoints. We would do well to listen to those that represent voices that aren't part of the dominant culture. I would have room for listening to Hannity et al if one listened with a critical discerning mind. That is not what I see though in our communities. I see whole sale adaptation of right wing talking points and embracing the white culture of power and victim blaming.

And how should I feel when I walk the streets of Lancaster and in the non-white communities, the people can’t even pick up the trash outside their homes? The local park is strewn with trash when there are trash cans a few feet away?

I have a lot of thoughts in this...but I'll just say. Yes I agree. Trash should be picked up.

A question for you, have you ever noticed that a super majority of serial murderers and school shooters are white?

[Josh]

A question for you, have you ever noticed that a super majority of serial murderers and school shooters are white?

Proportionally, josh?

[Josh]

I see whole sale adaptation of right wing talking points and embracing the white culture of power and victim blaming.

And, unfortunately, josh, I see a wholesale adaptation of left wing talking points and embracing identity politics, on your end. It's going to be literally impossible for you and folks like Grace to ever have a remotely serious discussion if both of you do this.

I'd prefer to see us use our Christian and Anabaptist values to frame this discussion. We are both going to lose if we adopt either a left wing, right wing, libertarian, socialist, Communist, etc. worldview.