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Re: Sources for Patristics, Catholic Doctrine, Orthodox Doctrine
Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:21 pm
by Judas Maccabeus
MaxPC wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:24 am
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:11 am
MaxPC wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:10 am
The diocesan websites are occasionally out of date with some of their docs. Not every diocese has the finances for a full-time archivist.
But one would presume that the USCCB does?
It would be lovely to be able to presume that but unfortunately the reality is a bit different. At the USCCB level, the jobs are part-time in addition to the regular jobs held elsewhere. It is one of those conundrums of the internet that its potential is sometimes stunted by lack of time or personnel to make immediate changes. Then there are the hacksters: the Vatican website was hacked last year and quite a bit of information had to be inputted again. Interestingly, one of my colleagues said that it is rumoured that it was an attempt to sell anti-hacking services to the Vatican. Rumours being what they are, I would take that with the proverbial grain.
It may be old-fashioned but I always keep the latest revisions of reference books such as the Code of Canon Law and the Catechism of the Catholic Church on my shelves for when (not if but when) the internet has a breakdown rather like the recent AT&T outage in the past month or so.
It is changing so fast that webmasters cannot keep up? So much for the eternal deposit of faith.
Re: Sources for Patristics, Catholic Doctrine, Orthodox Doctrine
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:58 am
by MaxPC
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:21 pm
MaxPC wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:24 am
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:11 am
But one would presume that the USCCB does?
It would be lovely to be able to presume that but unfortunately the reality is a bit different. At the USCCB level, the jobs are part-time in addition to the regular jobs held elsewhere. It is one of those conundrums of the internet that its potential is sometimes stunted by lack of time or personnel to make immediate changes. Then there are the hacksters: the Vatican website was hacked last year and quite a bit of information had to be inputted again. Interestingly, one of my colleagues said that it is rumoured that it was an attempt to sell anti-hacking services to the Vatican. Rumours being what they are, I would take that with the proverbial grain.
It may be old-fashioned but I always keep the latest revisions of reference books such as the Code of Canon Law and the Catechism of the Catholic Church on my shelves for when (not if but when) the internet has a breakdown rather like the recent AT&T outage in the past month or so.
It is changing so fast that webmasters cannot keep up? So much for the eternal deposit of faith.
Hardly. Translations are updated and new footnotes for clarity are set but the Deposit of the Faith does not change in spite of the ambitions of certain German bishops.
One of the translations recently had to be revised to a more detailed and accurate usage. Minor linguistic editing but editing nonetheless.
The point I am making is that there are no webmasters or only part-time webmasters in some dioceses and Catholic groups such as the USCCB. The USCCB has part-time communications people with other jobs. They do not have the resources of other groups. They are a collegial conference of Bishops who make decisions on internal matters including liturgical implementation and resource allocations. It had been suggested that all Bishop’s conferences simply link to the Vatican website but the hacksters put paid to that notion last year. It was decided by some dioceses to avoid putting all of one’s eggs into one proverbial website basket. Less efficient? Possibly. It does reinforce the concept that physical books cannot be hacked. It will always present challenges for a multi-continental Church.
Likewise Canon Law and the tribunals that implement them are designed to discern the application of the Deposit of the Faith to individual cases; similar to the Supreme Court of the US and its discernment of cases within the context of the US Constitution.
Apologies for the length of that answer, but that was important for context.
Re: Sources for Patristics, Catholic Doctrine, Orthodox Doctrine
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:24 am
by Judas Maccabeus
MaxPC wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:58 am
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:21 pm
MaxPC wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:24 am
It would be lovely to be able to presume that but unfortunately the reality is a bit different. At the USCCB level, the jobs are part-time in addition to the regular jobs held elsewhere. It is one of those conundrums of the internet that its potential is sometimes stunted by lack of time or personnel to make immediate changes. Then there are the hacksters: the Vatican website was hacked last year and quite a bit of information had to be inputted again. Interestingly, one of my colleagues said that it is rumoured that it was an attempt to sell anti-hacking services to the Vatican. Rumours being what they are, I would take that with the proverbial grain.
It may be old-fashioned but I always keep the latest revisions of reference books such as the Code of Canon Law and the Catechism of the Catholic Church on my shelves for when (not if but when) the internet has a breakdown rather like the recent AT&T outage in the past month or so.
It is changing so fast that webmasters cannot keep up? So much for the eternal deposit of faith.
Hardly. Translations are updated and new footnotes for clarity are set but the Deposit of the Faith does not change in spite of the ambitions of certain German bishops.
One of the translations recently had to be revised to a more detailed and accurate usage. Minor linguistic editing but editing nonetheless.
The point I am making is that there are no webmasters or only part-time webmasters in some dioceses and Catholic groups such as the USCCB. The USCCB has part-time communications people with other jobs. They do not have the resources of other groups. They are a collegial conference of Bishops who make decisions on internal matters including liturgical implementation and resource allocations. It had been suggested that all Bishop’s conferences simply link to the Vatican website but the hacksters put paid to that notion last year. It was decided by some dioceses to avoid putting all of one’s eggs into one proverbial website basket. Less efficient? Possibly. It does reinforce the concept that physical books cannot be hacked. It will always present challenges for a multi-continental Church.
Likewise Canon Law and the tribunals that implement them are designed to discern the application of the Deposit of the Faith to individual cases; similar to the Supreme Court of the US and its discernment of cases within the context of the US Constitution.
Apologies for the length of that answer, but that was important for context.
So, it is whatever they say it is at any given moment?
Re: Sources for Patristics, Catholic Doctrine, Orthodox Doctrine
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 9:41 am
by Josh
Incidentally one reason for Anabaptism was a desire to get rid of all these thick tomes of extra-biblical legislation and return to simply using the Bible as a foundation.
My church’s founding documents plus explanations plus statements of faith fit in a single book, and don’t require a vast (secret) library nor “canon lawyers”.
Re: Sources for Patristics, Catholic Doctrine, Orthodox Doctrine
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:38 pm
by MaxPC
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:24 am
MaxPC wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:58 am
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:21 pm
It is changing so fast that webmasters cannot keep up? So much for the eternal deposit of faith.
Hardly. Translations are updated and new footnotes for clarity are set but the Deposit of the Faith does not change in spite of the ambitions of certain German bishops.
One of the translations recently had to be revised to a more detailed and accurate usage. Minor linguistic editing but editing nonetheless.
The point I am making is that there are no webmasters or only part-time webmasters in some dioceses and Catholic groups such as the USCCB. The USCCB has part-time communications people with other jobs. They do not have the resources of other groups. They are a collegial conference of Bishops who make decisions on internal matters including liturgical implementation and resource allocations. It had been suggested that all Bishop’s conferences simply link to the Vatican website but the hacksters put paid to that notion last year. It was decided by some dioceses to avoid putting all of one’s eggs into one proverbial website basket. Less efficient? Possibly. It does reinforce the concept that physical books cannot be hacked. It will always present challenges for a multi-continental Church.
Likewise Canon Law and the tribunals that implement them are designed to discern the application of the Deposit of the Faith to individual cases; similar to the Supreme Court of the US and its discernment of cases within the context of the US Constitution.
Apologies for the length of that answer, but that was important for context.
So, it is whatever they say it is at any given moment?
Not sure if that is how you are categorising improved translations. Would you say that about the various translations of the Bible?
Re: Sources for Patristics, Catholic Doctrine, Orthodox Doctrine
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:10 pm
by Coifi
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2024 8:38 pm
To understand what the Orthodox Church teaches, I recommend these sources:
Are there better sources than these for people who want authoritative reference works?
"Authoritative works" in the Orthodox Church is very different from what is considered normal, in my experience. In the more traditional sense, 'authoritative' works would include the canons, but they also naturally include the Scriptures. I would also throw in the Divine Liturgy as being "authoritative", but again, that gets into the question on what something being "authoritative" means.
So I would recommend the book
The Whole Counsel of God by Fr. Stephen de Young. This is not an "authoritative" reference, but rather, more of a discussion on what such a phrase would mean in the context of Orthodox Christianity. Additionally, there is this podcast which I have been referring to called the Lord of Spirits and they discuss this topic on the episode
As Delivered by Angels. I would highly recommend it for those who want to learn about how texts come to be considered authoritative in the Orthodox Church.
Re: Sources for Patristics, Catholic Doctrine, Orthodox Doctrine
Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:42 pm
by Josh
Coifi wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:10 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2024 8:38 pm
To understand what the Orthodox Church teaches, I recommend these sources:
Are there better sources than these for people who want authoritative reference works?
"Authoritative works" in the Orthodox Church is very different from what is considered normal, in my experience. In the more traditional sense, 'authoritative' works would include the canons, but they also naturally include the Scriptures. I would also throw in the Divine Liturgy as being "authoritative", but again, that gets into the question on what something being "authoritative" means.
So I would recommend the book
The Whole Counsel of God by Fr. Stephen de Young. This is not an "authoritative" reference, but rather, more of a discussion on what such a phrase would mean in the context of Orthodox Christianity. Additionally, there is this podcast which I have been referring to called the Lord of Spirits and they discuss this topic on the episode
As Delivered by Angels. I would highly recommend it for those who want to learn about how texts come to be considered authoritative in the Orthodox Church.
This seems to be substantially different from how the RCC has authoritative sources.
When did these differences emerge? Were these present before 1054 or did the differences develop in more recent times?
Re: Sources for Patristics, Catholic Doctrine, Orthodox Doctrine
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:01 pm
by Coifi
Josh wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:42 pm
This seems to be substantially different from how the RCC has authoritative sources.
When did these differences emerge? Were these present before 1054 or did the differences develop in more recent times?
I am not sure when these differences emerged. It is most likely that it developed over hundreds of years both before and after 1054. It could be dated to the 5th century to St. Leo the Great or to later popes who emphasized the "Universal" bishop to their title. I'm sure historians disagree on this widely. After all journal articles need to be published and dissertations must be written...
I, at the very least, can only guess. What I can say, though, is that how spiritual authority and ecclesiastic hierarchy functions among Orthodox and Catholic Christians is quite different and very real.
Re: Sources for Patristics, Catholic Doctrine, Orthodox Doctrine
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:57 pm
by Bootstrap
Coifi wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:10 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2024 8:38 pm
To understand what the Orthodox Church teaches, I recommend these sources:
Are there better sources than these for people who want authoritative reference works?
"Authoritative works" in the Orthodox Church is very different from what is considered normal, in my experience. In the more traditional sense, 'authoritative' works would include the canons, but they also naturally include the Scriptures. I would also throw in the Divine Liturgy as being "authoritative", but again, that gets into the question on what something being "authoritative" means.
Yes, that resonates with me. I think in some ways, the Liturgy is really what all Orthodox have in common at the deepest level, in their own language, adapted to their culture. Much more than canon law. Would you agree? And I have met very devout Orthodox who are very steeped in the Liturgy, but not as steeped in Scripture. Does that match your experience?
Coifi wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:10 pmSo I would recommend the book
The Whole Counsel of God by Fr. Stephen de Young. This is not an "authoritative" reference, but rather, more of a discussion on what such a phrase would mean in the context of Orthodox Christianity. Additionally, there is this podcast which I have been referring to called the Lord of Spirits and they discuss this topic on the episode
As Delivered by Angels. I would highly recommend it for those who want to learn about how texts come to be considered authoritative in the Orthodox Church.
Could you perhaps summarize a little? I am SO swamped just now ...
Re: Sources for Patristics, Catholic Doctrine, Orthodox Doctrine
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:20 pm
by MaxPC
Coifi wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:10 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2024 8:38 pm
To understand what the Orthodox Church teaches, I recommend these sources:
Are there better sources than these for people who want authoritative reference works?
"Authoritative works" in the Orthodox Church is very different from what is considered normal, in my experience. In the more traditional sense, 'authoritative' works would include the canons, but they also naturally include the Scriptures. I would also throw in the Divine Liturgy as being "authoritative", but again, that gets into the question on what something being "authoritative" means.
So I would recommend the book
The Whole Counsel of God by Fr. Stephen de Young. This is not an "authoritative" reference, but rather, more of a discussion on what such a phrase would mean in the context of Orthodox Christianity. Additionally, there is this podcast which I have been referring to called the Lord of Spirits and they discuss this topic on the episode
As Delivered by Angels. I would highly recommend it for those who want to learn about how texts come to be considered authoritative in the Orthodox Church.
Quite, well said. I will see if I can get Fr Stephen’s book on loan. We are near a Byzantine monastery and they may have it. While they are in communion with Rome, the Byzantine Catholics use the Orthodox Bible.