The Cruciform Hermeneutic

[Neto]

I would prefer you read for yourself before you conclude him a heretic based on my poor attempt to review his words.

Fair enough. Thank you for your responses. I just don't know when I would have opportunity to do the study myself. I do believe that there are uncomplicated ways of understanding God as revealed in the OT as being the same as he is shown in the NT, whose every will and word Jesus followed. Jesus does himself speak of judgement as well as of grace and "long-suffering". And God is also shown in the OT to be patient & full of grace. It would be interesting to read this work at some time, but I do not myself see a conflict between the view of God in the OT and that in the New.

[Sudsy]

John Piper gives his response to a violent God of the OT being a different God of the NT as seen in Jesus. Although Boyd's opinion of God never being a violent God ever it is good to look at other viewpoints.

Here is a critique called - Greg Boyd’s Misunderstandings of the ‘Warrior God’ by Paul Copan which also has some interesting points of view - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/revi ... greg-boyd/

And John Piper answering a question regarding the violence of God in the OT -


I think the tendency may be for an Anabaptist like Boyd, focusing on Jesus and the church era, to want to somehow prove that God never was anything but a loving, power-surrendering, non-violent God and this view would tend to sit well with Anabaptism. But is he correct ? Or perhaps does God operate through the NT church in a different way then He did before the cross regarding violence ?

[AnthonyMartin]

Further links

Debate by Copan and Boyd
https://www.premierchristianradio.com/S ... arrior-God

And this four part series with excellent dialogue
https://www.therebelgod.com/2017/04/the ... t.html?m=1

Also this response to Flood's reviews
https://reknew.org/2017/05/reviewing-re ... rek-flood/

[Sudsy]

Further links

Debate by Copan and Boyd
https://www.premierchristianradio.com/S ... arrior-God

And this four part series with excellent dialogue
https://www.therebelgod.com/2017/04/the ... t.html?m=1

Also this response to Flood's reviews
https://reknew.org/2017/05/reviewing-re ... rek-flood/

Thankyou for these links. I plan to read/listen to them.

One thing that puzzles me is how so much attention is given on this forum by Anabaptists to other topics (i.e. politics, climate change, other kingdom events/interests) and so far, topics like this, being a main Anabaptist distinctive, non-violence, has not received at least an equal amount of interest, imo.

I'm curious as to how other Anabaptists here have reconciled in their minds the violence described and attributed by God and God using humans to be violent in the OT with Jesus telling the Church and demonstrating in His life a non-violent way for us now to live.

Piper seems to make a break between how God operated as a warrior King in OT times with the Church today in it's evangelism. He adds that God still operates using violent means outside the Church in His overall control of this world. This view is where I'm leaning at the moment although other things Piper said on this issue, I'm not that convinced about.

I hope more will join in your thread.

[AnthonyMartin]

One misgiving I do have with the absolute non-violent foundation Boyd uses to build his thesis on is that I'm not certain that it fits with an ex nihilo view of creation.

[Dan Z]

I've gotten partway through it - and agree with his core premise that Jesus is God's fullest revelation of Himself, thus things that appear to contradict the person and teachings of Christ are best understood in the light of Jesus. Where I'm struggling thus far is with how this approach as Boyd explains it seems to undercut the voice of OT scripture. Stay tuned - I'll keep reading.

[AnthonyMartin]

I've gotten partway through it - and agree with his core premise that Jesus is God's fullest revelation of Himself, thus things that appear to contradict the person and teachings of Christ are best understood in the light of Jesus. Where I'm struggling thus far is with how this approach as Boyd explains it seems to undercut the voice of OT scripture. Stay tuned - I'll keep reading.

Looking forward to your take. I think the dialogue with Flood, who Boyd places in the dismissal camp, may ease some of the concern related to undercutting the OT voice. If I understood their discussion...

[Valerie]

I think it is interesting to have a start point of the cross and Jesus laying down His life for the sins of the world rather than God the Father taking out His wrath on Jesus regarding the sins of the world. The ugliness of what man did was turned into something beautiful to those who believe.

This is the way the Orthodox present it- that Jesus willingly laid down His life for the sins of the world- and not the more Protestant view that God poured out His wrath on the Son-

Since they go back to the time of the Apostles, I would say that viewpoint has come down through the Church age that way-

[Fidelio]

I think it is interesting to have a start point of the cross and Jesus laying down His life for the sins of the world rather than God the Father taking out His wrath on Jesus regarding the sins of the world. The ugliness of what man did was turned into something beautiful to those who believe.

I am just wondering if there are any Bible verses indicating that God poured out his wrath on Jesus. That seems to be something from the penal theory of atonement. Since Jesus is a sacrifice for our sins, then it would be a sweet-smelling aroma to God as stated in Ephesians 5:2 "...Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." Somehow a sweet-smelling aroma does not seem to go with venting wrath. I think the whole point is that because the blood of Jesus cleanses us of our sins, God's wrath does not have to be vented on those sins. Was Jesus or substitute to be punished in our place, or was he a sacrifice to atone for our sins? I don't think it can be both.

1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

[Fidelio]

whoops, double post deleted