Sawatsky: Four Streams of Anabaptism

[QuietObserver]

Yes, I'll leave the academic titles to my neighbor.

In terms of writing, like Marpeck, I'm more of an editor than an author.

Where can I find your Marpeck writings?

[Bootstrap]

Anyone interested in starting a series of threads on this, perhaps one "stream" at a time? We have already looked at Menno Simons vs. Swiss Brethren several times, and Hutterites to some extent (mostly focused on their understanding of Gelassenheit). Some of these other streams haven't really been discussed here. I'm less familiar with them, I suspect I am not alone there.

[Josh]

Anyone interested in starting a series of threads on this, perhaps one "stream" at a time? We have already looked at Menno Simons vs. Swiss Brethren several times, and Hutterites to some extent (mostly focused on their understanding of Gelassenheit). Some of these other streams haven't really been discussed here. I'm less familiar with them, I suspect I am not alone there.

I’m certainly interested in reading them, particularly as I “switched lanes” from Swiss Anabaptism to Dutch Anabaptism 2 years ago.

[MaxPC]

Yes, I'll leave the academic titles to my neighbor.

In terms of writing, like Marpeck, I'm more of an editor than an author.

Most dissertations are edited research
Increasingly this sounds like good material for a book that would cover all the streams.

[Neoanabaptist]

Decades ago I collected material for a planned booklet about the origins of the peace churches, in their communication and conflict with the more "leftist" churches (as churches of violent transformationism). My basic argument was and is that the most stable and durable peacefulness stems from disappointment.

Beginning with Petr Chelcicky who wrote the first theological treatise in favour of an anarchist-pacifist stance, against the Hussites.

In case of the Mennonites, I saw a distinction between three directions.
a) the Swiss Brethren whose general approach was freedom and independency against enforced unity.
b) the Transformationists who, on the whole, repeated the ideas of the Hussites, and crashed.
c) the Mennonites who collected disappointed Transformationists into a Peace church. The Mennonites, as I saw them, repeated the basic ideas of Chelcicky, without knowing it.

The Quakers: beginning as a party of the Calvinist/Puritan Tranformationists, but then separating from Puritan violence, not because they were disappointed by the failure of Puritan Transformationism, but because they were disappointed by its success and the consequences. (That is what makes Quakerism more "modern".)

So, I distinguished between only three streams. I didn't see Marpeck as a distinct figure. Also my knowledge about Menno Simons was shallow, and my knowledge about Marpeck is practically nil. I understand that Sawatsky makes a difference between personal holiness (Simons) and service to the world (Marpeck), but I am not sure if this is a fair distinction. What do you think?

[Neoanabaptist]

Ohio Jones added three more streams:
Non-nonresistant (Hubmaier)
Communitarian (Hutterites)
Spiritualist (Denck, Bünderlin, Entfelder)

As for Hubmaier, I think he is simply an individual between the two streams of (potentially violent) transformationists and (potentially conservative) peaceniks; his personal stance in-between may be well-grounded and well-reflected, but I don't see him as the founder of a stream of his own.
Hutterites, even if they materialized in Moravia (possibly under influence of Chelcicky's Bohemian Brothers), are in my eyes the most radical variant of the Swiss stream. The Swiss strife for independency implied in itself a tendency to form autonomous communities. Of course the strict rules of Hutterism imply that they form an organization of their own, but nevertheless they can be seen as the best organized kind of a more general direction to withdrawal, independency and autarky.
Spiritualism is an interesting phenomenon - is it a "stream"?

[Hats Off]

Anyone interested in starting a series of threads on this, perhaps one "stream" at a time? We have already looked at Menno Simons vs. Swiss Brethren several times, and Hutterites to some extent (mostly focused on their understanding of Gelassenheit). Some of these other streams haven't really been discussed here. I'm less familiar with them, I suspect I am not alone there.

I’m certainly interested in reading them, particularly as I “switched lanes” from Swiss Anabaptism to Dutch Anabaptism 2 years ago.

COGIC Mennonite was originally from the Swiss lane but was overtaken by the Dutch.

[Hats Off]

Decades ago I collected material for a planned booklet about the origins of the peace churches, in their communication and conflict with the more "leftist" churches (as churches of violent transformationism). My basic argument was and is that the most stable and durable peacefulness stems from disappointment.

Beginning with Petr Chelcicky who wrote the first theological treatise in favour of an anarchist-pacifist stance, against the Hussites.

In case of the Mennonites, I saw a distinction between three directions.
a) the Swiss Brethren whose general approach was freedom and independency against enforced unity.
b) the Transformationists who, on the whole, repeated the ideas of the Hussites, and crashed.
c) the Mennonites who collected disappointed Transformationists into a Peace church. The Mennonites, as I saw them, repeated the basic ideas of Chelcicky, without knowing it.

The Quakers: beginning as a party of the Calvinist/Puritan Tranformationists, but then separating from Puritan violence, not because they were disappointed by the failure of Puritan Transformationism, but because they were disappointed by its success and the consequences. (That is what makes Quakerism more "modern".)

So, I distinguished between only three streams. I didn't see Marpeck as a distinct figure. Also my knowledge about Menno Simons was shallow, and my knowledge about Marpeck is practically nil. I understand that Sawatsky makes a difference between personal holiness (Simons) and service to the world (Marpeck), but I am not sure if this is a fair distinction. What do you think?

This seems to be a reasonable characterization; Menno was a former priest so more of a scholar, dealing with the written word while Marpeck was a civil engineer, working with his hands, assisting with engineering projects in his municipality. I would suggest this would have given them different perspectives, based on their life experiences.

[MaxPC]

Decades ago I collected material for a planned booklet about the origins of the peace churches, in their communication and conflict with the more "leftist" churches (as churches of violent transformationism). My basic argument was and is that the most stable and durable peacefulness stems from disappointment.

Beginning with Petr Chelcicky who wrote the first theological treatise in favour of an anarchist-pacifist stance, against the Hussites.

In case of the Mennonites, I saw a distinction between three directions.
a) the Swiss Brethren whose general approach was freedom and independency against enforced unity.
b) the Transformationists who, on the whole, repeated the ideas of the Hussites, and crashed.
c) the Mennonites who collected disappointed Transformationists into a Peace church. The Mennonites, as I saw them, repeated the basic ideas of Chelcicky, without knowing it.

The Quakers: beginning as a party of the Calvinist/Puritan Tranformationists, but then separating from Puritan violence, not because they were disappointed by the failure of Puritan Transformationism, but because they were disappointed by its success and the consequences. (That is what makes Quakerism more "modern".)

So, I distinguished between only three streams. I didn't see Marpeck as a distinct figure. Also my knowledge about Menno Simons was shallow, and my knowledge about Marpeck is practically nil. I understand that Sawatsky makes a difference between personal holiness (Simons) and service to the world (Marpeck), but I am not sure if this is a fair distinction. What do you think?

Ohio Jones added three more streams:
Non-nonresistant (Hubmaier)
Communitarian (Hutterites)
Spiritualist (Denck, Bünderlin, Entfelder)

As for Hubmaier, I think he is simply an individual between the two streams of (potentially violent) transformationists and (potentially conservative) peaceniks; his personal stance in-between may be well-grounded and well-reflected, but I don't see him as the founder of a stream of his own.
Hutterites, even if they materialized in Moravia (possibly under influence of Chelcicky's Bohemian Brothers), are in my eyes the most radical variant of the Swiss stream. The Swiss strife for independency implied in itself a tendency to form autonomous communities. Of course the strict rules of Hutterism imply that they form an organization of their own, but nevertheless they can be seen as the best organized kind of a more general direction to withdrawal, independency and autarky.
Spiritualism is an interesting phenomenon - is it a "stream"?

Fascinating information, Neoanabaptist. This is a really intereesting thread.

[Hats Off]

Ohio Jones added three more streams:
Non-nonresistant (Hubmaier)
Communitarian (Hutterites)
Spiritualist (Denck, Bünderlin, Entfelder)

As for Hubmaier, I think he is simply an individual between the two streams of (potentially violent) transformationists and (potentially conservative) peaceniks; his personal stance in-between may be well-grounded and well-reflected, but I don't see him as the founder of a stream of his own.
Hutterites, even if they materialized in Moravia (possibly under influence of Chelcicky's Bohemian Brothers), are in my eyes the most radical variant of the Swiss stream. The Swiss strife for independency implied in itself a tendency to form autonomous communities. Of course the strict rules of Hutterism imply that they form an organization of their own, but nevertheless they can be seen as the best organized kind of a more general direction to withdrawal, independency and autarky.
Spiritualism is an interesting phenomenon - is it a "stream"?

I would suggest it could be considered that. It is certainly different than the Amish, Mennonite and Hutterite types who are more practical or earthy as opposed to spiritualist. Spiritualism and Pietism have more in common.