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Re: Mennonites and Slavery
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:09 am
by Praxis+Theodicy
AndersonD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:00 am
Robert wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:53 am
Amazon and UPS employees are quite well paid with a lot of benefits.
In the past I took a nonchalant view towards UPS, Amazon and FedEx but as Josh stated, they are under an ungodly amount of pressure to perform. And UPS drivers make money, but
they are putting their lives in danger which is unethical.
Talk of UPS and Amazon aside (I believe UPS has a decent union which ensures the workers have a better chance to voice their concerns at least)...
I am interested in this opinion I highlighted. What about putting your life in danger is unethical? Are you saying it's unethical for an employer to demand that of their employees? Or is it unethical for anyone to put their life in danger for the sake of their occupation? Like crab fishermen, or deep sea oil drill operators, or social workers, or doctors/nurses, miners...
The opportunity to run into a deadly situation is not unique to UPS drivers. Delivering packages could potentially put you face to face with someone who, for whatever reason, wants to use deadly force on you. I don't think this automatically makes it unethical to hold that job.
Re: Mennonites and Slavery
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:29 am
by AndersonD
Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:09 am
AndersonD wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:00 am
Robert wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:53 am
Amazon and UPS employees are quite well paid with a lot of benefits.
In the past I took a nonchalant view towards UPS, Amazon and FedEx but as Josh stated, they are under an ungodly amount of pressure to perform. And UPS drivers make money, but
they are putting their lives in danger which is unethical.
Talk of UPS and Amazon aside (I believe UPS has a decent union which ensures the workers have a better chance to voice their concerns at least)...
I am interested in this opinion I highlighted. What about putting your life in danger is unethical? Are you saying it's unethical for an employer to demand that of their employees? Or is it unethical for anyone to put their life in danger for the sake of their occupation? Like crab fishermen, or deep sea oil drill operators, or social workers, or doctors/nurses, miners...
The opportunity to run into a deadly situation is not unique to UPS drivers. Delivering packages could potentially put you face to face with someone who, for whatever reason, wants to use deadly force on you. I don't think this automatically makes it unethical to hold that job.
So, one of my uncles worked for UPS and suffered from heat strokes. Brown trucks on a sunny, hot day are often 10-15 degrees hotter than the outside environment. The package handlers are working in trucks w very little ventilation stacking boxes to the ceiling on 90+ degree days. Companies like Chewy.com box up heavy bags of dog food that are handled at least 3x before they are dropped off at the customer's house. After listening to my uncle's account, I have often wondered what an individual like John Woolman or Benjamin Lay would say about such companies and have personally decided to try to think about the exploitative nature of companies before making a purchase. There's a lot of sweat shop labor occuring in other countries as well as the US that I don't want to support. I don't condemn people who want to purchase from a company like Chewy.com but I personally am not going to purchase from such a company.
Re: Mennonites and Slavery
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:28 am
by RZehr
I think jobs that involve heat and sweat of the brow, and heavy lifting are important to do, and contribute important and needed shaping of perspective and character of the person doing them, and the society in which they have their being.
These jobs are more superior for shaping strong character and health, than white collar jobs. Every person should do them for a while. These are the people who really keep the world turning. You can find these people all around the world.
The sleep of a labouring man, is sweet.
Re: Mennonites and Slavery
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:20 am
by Soloist
Wife: this got me looking into what was so dangerous about UPS, and I have to admit that it wouldn’t hurt to make sure there’s AC or at least fans in the back of the truck and proper water and supplies for the drivers and loaders. A couple people have apparently left items to cook in the back of their trucks because it gets so hot back there. Also, apparently us customers’ demand for quick shipping is part of what makes it so difficult for the people working in those jobs. I’m sure it depends on location and management though, but there have apparently been a lot of heat strokes and other stuff because of unsafe working environments. I don’t know if this means I will avoid UPS, but maybe if they’re allowed to accept snacks, it would be nice to show appreciation sometimes.
Re: Mennonites and Slavery
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 1:44 pm
by mike
The UPS delivery drivers I see almost daily are some of the fittest and healthiest people I've seen. Over the road truck drivers can easily be a bit overweight. I've never seen an obese UPS driver. They are efficient and good at their job, and they are loyal. We have had the same primary delivery driver for years at this point.
Re: Mennonites and Slavery
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:07 pm
by Ken
mike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 1:44 pm
The UPS delivery drivers I see almost daily are some of the fittest and healthiest people I've seen. Over the road truck drivers can easily be a bit overweight. I've never seen an obese UPS driver. They are efficient and good at their job, and they are loyal. We have had the same primary delivery driver for years at this point.
Driving UPS trucks is a prime job with good benefits and a union. They earn about $24/hr. on average and with overtime average about $95,000 per year in salary and get generous health and retirement benefits. People tend not to walk away from those jobs.
There are plenty of exploitative low-paid blue collar manual labor type jobs in the US. Like working in meat packing plants. Driving for UPS isn't one of them.
Re: Mennonites and Slavery
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:17 pm
by mike
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:07 pm
mike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 1:44 pm
The UPS delivery drivers I see almost daily are some of the fittest and healthiest people I've seen. Over the road truck drivers can easily be a bit overweight. I've never seen an obese UPS driver. They are efficient and good at their job, and they are loyal. We have had the same primary delivery driver for years at this point.
Driving UPS trucks is a prime job with good benefits and a union. They earn about $24/hr. on average and with overtime average about $95,000 per year in salary and get generous health and retirement benefits. People tend not to walk away from those jobs.
There are plenty of exploitative low-paid blue collar manual labor type jobs in the US. Like working in meat packing plants. Driving for UPS isn't one of them.
Yes, I don't see the reason for UPS drivers to come up in a thread about slavery. And even some meat-packing jobs are moving to robotics. One of our chicken suppliers just told me at a show the other day that they are moving toward robots cutting up poultry.
Take a look at some of the systems that are taking over the low-wage jobs where you cut up chickens for hours on end.
Re: Mennonites and Slavery
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:29 pm
by Ernie
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:07 pm They earn about $24/hr. on average and with overtime average about $95,000 per year in salary and get generous health and retirement benefits.
How many hours do they need to work a week to get 95K?
Re: Mennonites and Slavery
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:42 pm
by Ken
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:29 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:07 pm They earn about $24/hr. on average and with overtime average about $95,000 per year in salary and get generous health and retirement benefits.
How many hours do they need to work a week to get 95K?
Dunno. I'm just going by the news reporting. I can't find the page where I got the $95,000 number, I must have changed the google search terms slightly. But this news report pops up which doesn't give the CURRENT figure, but gives a $102,000/yr figure for wages and $170,000/yr for total benefits by the end of the current 5-year contract :
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ups-driver ... pensation/ so the $95,000/yr figure seems ballpark. Either way they are doing OK. It certainly isn't exploited slave labor.
UPS says drivers to make $170,000 in pay and benefits following union deal
BY ELIZABETH NAPOLITANO
UPDATED ON: AUGUST 15, 2023 / 5:00 PM EDT / MONEYWATCH
UPS drivers will earn an average of $170,000 in annual pay and benefits at the end of a five-year contract agreement, UPS CEO Carol Tomé said during an earnings call this week.
The executive's comments punctuated the end of a weekslong struggle between UPS and the Teamsters Union which negotiated with the carrier last month to avert a strike and secure a new contract for 340,000 union employees. More than 70% of UPS' 443,000 employees are represented by the Teamsters' Union, the company's website shows.
"We expected negotiations with the Teamsters to be late and loud, and they were," Tomé said during the call. As a result, UPS slashed its full-year revenue forecasts "primarily to reflect the volume impact from labor negotiations and the costs associated with the tentative agreement," she added.
The deal, which was reached on July 25, will increase full-time workers' compensation to $170,000 from roughly $145,000 over five years, according to UPS' calculations. It will also boost part-time workers' salaries to at least $25.75 per hour, and end mandatory overtime, Tomé told investors on Tuesday.
Online searches for jobs with "UPS" or "United Parcel Service" in the title jumped 50% in the week after the new pay deal was announced, Bloomberg News reported, citing data from Indeed.
Higher six-figure pay for UPS drivers
By the end of the new contract, full-time UPS delivery drivers will make an average of $49 per hour, which works out to nearly $102,000 per year, assuming a 40-hour workweek, 52 weeks a year. Those employees are guaranteed an eight-hour workday, a UPS spokesperson told CBS MoneyWatch.
Drivers also receive $50,000 in benefits "that include health, welfare and pension contributions," the spokesperson said.
That places UPS drivers near the same pay grade as software developers, finance directors and physician assistants, who all earn average salaries in the $108,000 - $115,000 range, according to Indeed.
Re: Mennonites and Slavery
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:43 pm
by Ernie
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:42 pm
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:29 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:07 pm They earn about $24/hr. on average and with overtime average about $95,000 per year in salary and get generous health and retirement benefits.
How many hours do they need to work a week to get 95K?
Dunno. I'm just going by the news reporting. I can't find the page where I got the $95,000 number, I must have changed the google search terms slightly. But this news report pops up which doesn't give the CURRENT figure, but gives a $102,000/yr figure for wages and $170,000/yr for total benefits by the end of the current 5-year contract
I was just wondering how you can get to those figures on $24 an hour without working 60 hours per week.