Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

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Bootstrap
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Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Bootstrap »

Adam raised Titus 3:9 in another thread recently. I'm trying to use my time more productively, and I definitely have a problem here, getting involved with foolish controversies. I found a few Spurgeon quotes on this that seem insightful.
Spurgeon wrote:There are always plenty of thorn about, and there are certain professors who spend half their lives in fighting about nothing at all. There is no more in their contention than the difference between Tweedledum and Tweedledee; but they will divide a church over it, they will go through the world as if they had found out a great secret,-it really is not of any consequence whatever,-but having made the discovery, they judge everybody by their new-found fad, and so spread a spirit that is contrary to the Spirit of Christ.

There are hundreds of questions, which are thought by some people to be very important, but which have no practical bearing whatever, either upon the glory of God, or upon the holiness of man. We are not to go into these matters; let those who have time to waste take up these questions; as for us, we have not time enough for things that are unprofitable and vain.
Spurgeon wrote:Our days are few, and are far better spent in doing good, than in disputing over matters which are, at best, of minor importance. The old schoolmen did a world of mischief by their incessant discussion of subjects of no practical importance; and our Churches suffer much from petty wars over abstruse points and unimportant questions. After everything has been said that can be said, neither party is any the wiser, and therefore the discussion no more promotes knowledge than love, and it is foolish to sow in so barren a field. Questions upon points wherein Scripture is silent; upon mysteries which belong to God alone; upon prophecies of doubtful interpretation; and upon mere modes of observing human ceremonials, are all foolish, and wise men avoid them. Our business is neither to ask nor answer foolish questions, but to avoid them altogether; and if we observe the apostle’s precept (Titus 3:8) to be careful to maintain good works, we shall find ourselves far too much occupied with profitable business to take much interest in unworthy, contentious, and needless strivings.

There are, however, some questions which are the reverse of foolish, which we must not avoid, but fairly and honestly meet, such as these: Do I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? Am I renewed in the spirit of my mind? Am I walking not after the flesh, but after the Spirit? Am I growing in grace? Does my conversation adorn the doctrine of God my Saviour? Am I looking for the coming of the Lord, and watching as a servant should do who expects his master? What more can I do for Jesus? Such enquiries as these urgently demand our attention; and if we have been at all given to cavilling, let us now turn our critical abilities to a service so much more profitable. Let us be peace-makers, and endeavour to lead others both by our precept and example, to “avoid foolish questions.” (Morning and evening)
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Hats Off
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Hats Off »

I don't suppose any of the topics are foolish except those meant to be. They become foolish only when we continue disputing after we have made our point, whether it is accepted or not. I say this in agreement with you, Bootstrap.
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Adam
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Adam »

Bootstrap wrote:Adam raised Titus 3:9 in another thread recently. I'm trying to use my time more productively, and I definitely have a problem here, getting involved with foolish controversies.
Don't be too hard on yourself. I personally find many of your contributions to this forum to be encouraging and engaging in a very positive way. Sometimes it is just hard to know when to leave something alone and move on, realizing that continued conversation is not likely to bear any positive fruit. I think many of us probably struggle with that.
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Sudsy
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote:Adam raised Titus 3:9 in another thread recently. I'm trying to use my time more productively, and I definitely have a problem here, getting involved with foolish controversies. I found a few Spurgeon quotes on this that seem insightful.
Spurgeon wrote:There are always plenty of thorn about, and there are certain professors who spend half their lives in fighting about nothing at all. There is no more in their contention than the difference between Tweedledum and Tweedledee; but they will divide a church over it, they will go through the world as if they had found out a great secret,-it really is not of any consequence whatever,-but having made the discovery, they judge everybody by their new-found fad, and so spread a spirit that is contrary to the Spirit of Christ.

There are hundreds of questions, which are thought by some people to be very important, but which have no practical bearing whatever, either upon the glory of God, or upon the holiness of man. We are not to go into these matters; let those who have time to waste take up these questions; as for us, we have not time enough for things that are unprofitable and vain.
Spurgeon wrote:Our days are few, and are far better spent in doing good, than in disputing over matters which are, at best, of minor importance. The old schoolmen did a world of mischief by their incessant discussion of subjects of no practical importance; and our Churches suffer much from petty wars over abstruse points and unimportant questions. After everything has been said that can be said, neither party is any the wiser, and therefore the discussion no more promotes knowledge than love, and it is foolish to sow in so barren a field. Questions upon points wherein Scripture is silent; upon mysteries which belong to God alone; upon prophecies of doubtful interpretation; and upon mere modes of observing human ceremonials, are all foolish, and wise men avoid them. Our business is neither to ask nor answer foolish questions, but to avoid them altogether; and if we observe the apostle’s precept (Titus 3:8) to be careful to maintain good works, we shall find ourselves far too much occupied with profitable business to take much interest in unworthy, contentious, and needless strivings.

There are, however, some questions which are the reverse of foolish, which we must not avoid, but fairly and honestly meet, such as these: Do I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? Am I renewed in the spirit of my mind? Am I walking not after the flesh, but after the Spirit? Am I growing in grace? Does my conversation adorn the doctrine of God my Saviour? Am I looking for the coming of the Lord, and watching as a servant should do who expects his master? What more can I do for Jesus? Such enquiries as these urgently demand our attention; and if we have been at all given to cavilling, let us now turn our critical abilities to a service so much more profitable. Let us be peace-makers, and endeavour to lead others both by our precept and example, to “avoid foolish questions.” (Morning and evening)
I think Spurgeon hit the nail on the head with the examples of questions bolded above. That it was why I likely will drift away again from this forum as for me, I get too easily drawn into areas that do waste my time. And I don't care for put downs on groups such as those 'Evangelicals'. Seems like, at times, the number one enemy is not satan and his hold on the unsaved world but rather other non-Anabaptists (and even Anabaptists) who are questionable true believers. To me, the judging of other believers is more about the inside of a local church fellowship than it is the various Christian faith groups that exist.

So, I better heed Spurgeon "to maintain good works, we shall find ourselves far too much occupied with profitable business to take much interest in unworthy, contentious, and needless strivings". As Jesus said, our lights will shine through our good deeds that cause people to see God at work in us. I know mine are not of that level yet.
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Adam »

Sudsy wrote:I think Spurgeon hit the nail on the head with the examples of questions bolded above. That it was why I likely will drift away again from this forum as for me, I get too easily drawn into areas that do waste my time. And I don't care for put downs on groups such as those 'Evangelicals'. Seems like, at times, the number one enemy is not satan and his hold on the unsaved world but rather other non-Anabaptists (and even Anabaptists) who are questionable true believers. To me, the judging of other believers is more about the inside of a local church fellowship than it is the various Christian faith groups that exist.
I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that we wrestle not against flesh and blood. Nevertheless it is good to remember that many people on this forum (like me) are coming with questions about Mennonite/Anabaptist/Kingdom Christian faith and practice, particularly, it seems, with questions about the more conservative branches. Those who are coming with such questions have discovered things about mainstream Evangelical theology and teaching that don't seem to line up with historic (Ante-Nicene) Christianity or the straightforward teachings of the Bible, and so they come here with questions. As a result, it is often necessary to discuss ways in which the Evangelical church is at odds with more Conservative Anabaptist faith and practice. I don't think the main point is to put down Evangelicals, but rather it is to come to a deeper understanding of historic Christianity and Biblical teaching from a Conservative Anabaptist perspective.

I used to be an 'Evangelical', and most of my friends would still fit that description. I don't think this forum is about judging others, by trying to reason together through difficult issues. We will come to conclusions that differ from Evangelicals and we will lament what appears to be a laxity among many Evangelicals in following the commands of our Lord. Those things are concerning because Evangelicals are so influential in shaping Christianity today. Nevertheless, I love my Evangelical brothers and sisters and imagine that in some (or perhaps many) ways, many of them walk more closely with the Lord than I myself do.
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Sudsy
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Sudsy »

Adam wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I think Spurgeon hit the nail on the head with the examples of questions bolded above. That it was why I likely will drift away again from this forum as for me, I get too easily drawn into areas that do waste my time. And I don't care for put downs on groups such as those 'Evangelicals'. Seems like, at times, the number one enemy is not satan and his hold on the unsaved world but rather other non-Anabaptists (and even Anabaptists) who are questionable true believers. To me, the judging of other believers is more about the inside of a local church fellowship than it is the various Christian faith groups that exist.
I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that we wrestle not against flesh and blood. Nevertheless it is good to remember that many people on this forum (like me) are coming with questions about Mennonite/Anabaptist/Kingdom Christian faith and practice, particularly, it seems, with questions about the more conservative branches. Those who are coming with such questions have discovered things about mainstream Evangelical theology and teaching that don't seem to line up with historic (Ante-Nicene) Christianity or the straightforward teachings of the Bible, and so they come here with questions. As a result, it is often necessary to discuss ways in which the Evangelical church is at odds with more Conservative Anabaptist faith and practice. I don't think the main point is to put down Evangelicals, but rather it is to come to a deeper understanding of historic Christianity and Biblical teaching from a Conservative Anabaptist perspective.

I used to be an 'Evangelical', and most of my friends would still fit that description. I don't think this forum is about judging others, by trying to reason together through difficult issues. We will come to conclusions that differ from Evangelicals and we will lament what appears to be a laxity among many Evangelicals in following the commands of our Lord. Those things are concerning because Evangelicals are so influential in shaping Christianity today. Nevertheless, I love my Evangelical brothers and sisters and imagine that in some (or perhaps many) ways, many of them walk more closely with the Lord than I myself do.
I, too, come from the 'Evangelical' world and know many in that world that also are quite concerned about much of what is happening there. I get a bit defensive for these when I think these concerned 'Evangelicals' are being slandered. If we just tackled the issues without referring to them as 'Evangelicals' as it implies to me that they are all alike, I wouldn't react like this. I will try to not be so defensive of these brothers and sisters in Christ and focus on the issues more.
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Valerie »

Adam wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I think Spurgeon hit the nail on the head with the examples of questions bolded above. That it was why I likely will drift away again from this forum as for me, I get too easily drawn into areas that do waste my time. And I don't care for put downs on groups such as those 'Evangelicals'. Seems like, at times, the number one enemy is not satan and his hold on the unsaved world but rather other non-Anabaptists (and even Anabaptists) who are questionable true believers. To me, the judging of other believers is more about the inside of a local church fellowship than it is the various Christian faith groups that exist.
I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that we wrestle not against flesh and blood. Nevertheless it is good to remember that many people on this forum (like me) are coming with questions about Mennonite/Anabaptist/Kingdom Christian faith and practice, particularly, it seems, with questions about the more conservative branches. Those who are coming with such questions have discovered things about mainstream Evangelical theology and teaching that don't seem to line up with historic (Ante-Nicene) Christianity or the straightforward teachings of the Bible, and so they come here with questions. As a result, it is often necessary to discuss ways in which the Evangelical church is at odds with more Conservative Anabaptist faith and practice. I don't think the main point is to put down Evangelicals, but rather it is to come to a deeper understanding of historic Christianity and Biblical teaching from a Conservative Anabaptist perspective.

I used to be an 'Evangelical', and most of my friends would still fit that description. I don't think this forum is about judging others, by trying to reason together through difficult issues. We will come to conclusions that differ from Evangelicals and we will lament what appears to be a laxity among many Evangelicals in following the commands of our Lord. Those things are concerning because Evangelicals are so influential in shaping Christianity today. Nevertheless, I love my Evangelical brothers and sisters and imagine that in some (or perhaps many) ways, many of them walk more closely with the Lord than I myself do.
That is why I came here too originally 7 years ago. I do glean from the forum and appreciate the seriousness of the Christians on here who are focused on living for Christ. Useless wranglings can get discouraging & like Sudsy I've oft' wanted to walk away when criticism of Evangelicals takes place because I know too many that are serving Him with all their heart and their families 'walks' glorify the Lord- I think this breaks the Lord's heart- even if there is a valid reason to make distinctions, we were told by Apostle Paul not to compare ourselves-

There was a man who came to Mennodiscuss several years ago, maybe some remember LJ - who came from Evangelical and then like many of us, were discouraged & looking to Anabaptism- he was sold out to it and moved and committed and went plain- I assumed he was happy in Anabaptism with his family. Then about a month ago I was informed by a former poster here, that LJ is being Chrismated in the Eastern Orthodox Church. I was shocked to say the least- not sure what happened in his journeying from Evangelical, to Anabaptism- to lead him there- BUT- I also am aware of a poster here who is SO discouraged in the 'many' faiths that he's about to completely lose faith- he had also made a major move to join an Anabaptism church- he really needs prayer because apparently, he is finding this new experience in Anabaptism falling short- too far from the original Church, in some ways- I am truly concerned he's falling away- (please pray, God knows who he is)

It makes me wonder if all this is just indicative of the days before Christ's Second Advent- we truly need to keep our eyes fixed on the author and finisher of our faith and not lose heart-

I love the quotes by Spurgeon, our present pastor quotes him often. These kinds of encouragements are needed- the enemy of our soul loves to divide, distract, deceive- we often don't realize that we have played right into his hands in these wranglings.
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Josh »

Generally speaking I think a lot of people in an existing evangelical setting should quit seeking and instead seek to reform their church, friends, and congregation from within. That's what the early Anabaptists did.

This endless seeking seems to often end up in a final destination that is bizarre, like sprinkling holy water on infants, or ends up at a destination where there is no Christ at all.
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:Generally speaking I think a lot of people in an existing evangelical setting should quit seeking and instead seek to reform their church, friends, and congregation from within. That's what the early Anabaptists did.
That is contrary to what I read? The reformers! tried to reform...!
I thought the Anabaptists were actually mostly raised in a church that baptized infants... Hence the name rebaptizers.

[/quote]This endless seeking seems to often end up in a final destination that is bizarre, like sprinkling holy water on infants, or ends up at a destination where there is no Christ at all.[/quote]

The problem is that the early Anabaptists literally forsook all even unto death and therefore left rather than reform. Today no Mennonites I have seen can even relate to literally forsaking all, so when one comes from the world there is an attitude of, "I have done nothing right.". And they walk into a setting that says, "We have done it right for years.". Completely opposing attitudes and the newcomer finds something different from what they read about the early Anabaptists.
Early Anabaptists didn't accept newcomers so freely because it was a threat to their loved ones if the person was a spy. Today the Mennonites rejection is for reasons not even remotely close to their blood ancestors.

And an attitude of telling one to stay and reform is in my opinion a reformer attitude that relates nothing to the early Anabaptists, or the early church.
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Josh »

Wade wrote:And an attitude of telling one to stay and reform is in my opinion a reformer attitude that relates nothing to the early Anabaptists, or the early church.
Grebel, Blaurock, and others would get up and talk at length at every mass for about six months until they were silenced and ordered to leave. They tried to call those within the church to repentance first.

If they hadn't done that nobody else would have followed them out of the church.
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