Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Messages, Lectures and talks that relate, or connect to Anabapatist theology.
Wade
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:And an attitude of telling one to stay and reform is in my opinion a reformer attitude that relates nothing to the early Anabaptists, or the early church.
Grebel, Blaurock, and others would get up and talk at length at every mass for about six months until they were silenced and ordered to leave. They tried to call those within the church to repentance first.

If they hadn't done that nobody else would have followed them out of the church.
Yes. They didn't stay.
Do you think they told anyone else to stay?
Rather you said they called them to repentance... And had others follow them out...
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Valerie
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:And an attitude of telling one to stay and reform is in my opinion a reformer attitude that relates nothing to the early Anabaptists, or the early church.
Grebel, Blaurock, and others would get up and talk at length at every mass for about six months until they were silenced and ordered to leave. They tried to call those within the church to repentance first.

If they hadn't done that nobody else would have followed them out of the church.
Weren't all reformers from the Catholic Church? How did they all gather their former Catholics out?
I understand what you are saying- when Jesus addressed the 7 churches in Revelations, to one He said "Strengthen what remains". Actually you never read Him telling any of the Churches to bail and start over

Honestly I feel like today is a completely different scenario though- most denominations are denominations because they truly believe their interpretations are correct compared to 'the others'- having been seekers/explorers once deciding to leave Pentecostal/Evangelical (but pretty much residing in Evangelical presently) each group seems to be very well aware of the other groups teachings- they just disagree & feel they misinterpret (or like the Pentecostals who say things like "but they don't have the Spirit") see this is completely a different scenario than what was going on during the Reformation.
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Adam
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Adam »

Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:And an attitude of telling one to stay and reform is in my opinion a reformer attitude that relates nothing to the early Anabaptists, or the early church.
Grebel, Blaurock, and others would get up and talk at length at every mass for about six months until they were silenced and ordered to leave. They tried to call those within the church to repentance first.

If they hadn't done that nobody else would have followed them out of the church.
Weren't all reformers from the Catholic Church? How did they all gather their former Catholics out?
I understand what you are saying- when Jesus addressed the 7 churches in Revelations, to one He said "Strengthen what remains". Actually you never read Him telling any of the Churches to bail and start over

Honestly I feel like today is a completely different scenario though- most denominations are denominations because they truly believe their interpretations are correct compared to 'the others'- having been seekers/explorers once deciding to leave Pentecostal/Evangelical (but pretty much residing in Evangelical presently) each group seems to be very well aware of the other groups teachings- they just disagree & feel they misinterpret (or like the Pentecostals who say things like "but they don't have the Spirit") see this is completely a different scenario than what was going on during the Reformation.
I would say that many people attending Pentecostal/Evangelical churches are completely unaware of some doctrines such as the Two Kingdoms, Nonresistance, and, to a lesser extent, Modesty. Most have no idea that the Assemblies of God started out as a 'pacifist' (for lack of a better term) organization. I would say there is also an increasing unawareness that divorce and remarriage is wrong.

Josh, I appreciate your comments about 'seekers' trying to make changes within their own denominations and I think there is value to that approach. As an ordained Assemblies of God minister, I have started preaching in Assemblies of God churches here in Papua New Guinea. My first sermon was on the Kingdom of God. Over time I hope to include the Two Kingdoms, Nonresistance, and other such themes in my preaching. (Pray for my abilities to communicate in the Enga language to increase!) I have also considered many times that if/when I return one day to America for good that I will preach such doctrines within an Assemblies of God church. I would certainly face opposition since the Assemblies of God is now highly militaristic. Such preaching could end up with me being blacklisted, but if that is the case, so be it. Whether the Lord will indeed lead in that direction, only time will tell.

The difficulty ordained ministers will have is that when they come to an Anabaptist faith perspective, they might no longer be able to serve as ministers since many denominations require signing a statement of faith. I have to renew my affirmation of that statement each year. Those who are not ordained ministers might have greater success as they may not be bound to affirming doctrinal statements of faith. Yet, at the same time, they will have fewer opportunities to influence congregations through preaching.
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Josh
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Josh »

There is nothing in AOG's statement of faith that requires not believing in nonresistance, the veiling, modesty, separation from the world, or a high view of church brotherhood.

Preach away!
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Wade
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:And an attitude of telling one to stay and reform is in my opinion a reformer attitude that relates nothing to the early Anabaptists, or the early church.
Grebel, Blaurock, and others would get up and talk at length at every mass for about six months until they were silenced and ordered to leave. They tried to call those within the church to repentance first.

If they hadn't done that nobody else would have followed them out of the church.
So where does this leave us unchurched that have no start of being joined anywhere?
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Soloist
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Soloist »

Wade wrote: So where does this leave us unchurched that have no start of being joined anywhere?
Pray for God to give you fellowship.

I'm facing some pretty extreme problems myself and I have a fellowship (sort of). Its difficult to realize that you have major problems that you need help with and then you feel trapped unable to move to somewhere that could help because you have issues with mental health within your family.

I can't help but feel like I keep getting told "be warm and be filled" without food or coat. People have offered help, but its a very complex problem I have and one is offering to help pay for help and the other is offering to be help but hasn't told me when they could. Prior to that I had another person that ended up backing out of helping. No one really knows what to tell me and I can't even speak openly about all of my family issues and have even been told I'm exaggerating my problems. I just don't have an end or someway of changing my problems without causing other major problems and both doing and not doing have serious ramifications.
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Adam
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Adam »

Josh wrote:There is nothing in AOG's statement of faith that requires not believing in nonresistance, the veiling, modesty, separation from the world, or a high view of church brotherhood.

Preach away!
Will do. Keep me in your prayers!
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Josh
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Josh »

Wade wrote: So where does this leave us unchurched that have no start of being joined anywhere?
Wade,

My comments weren't directed at the unchurched or people who've never been to church.

I generally invite people to either a moderate conservative church or a Holdeman church since they both have a good track record of being warm and accepting of outsiders.

If someone is seeking Anabaptism I'm not sure what I'd do, usually such churches aren't strict enough for them or the drift in the young people bothers them.
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Valerie
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Valerie »

Adam wrote:
I would say that many people attending Pentecostal/Evangelical churches are completely unaware of some doctrines such as the Two Kingdoms, Nonresistance, and, to a lesser extent, Modesty. Most have no idea that the Assemblies of God started out as a 'pacifist' (for lack of a better term) organization. I would say there is also an increasing unawareness that divorce and remarriage is wrong.

Josh, I appreciate your comments about 'seekers' trying to make changes within their own denominations and I think there is value to that approach. As an ordained Assemblies of God minister, I have started preaching in Assemblies of God churches here in Papua New Guinea. My first sermon was on the Kingdom of God. Over time I hope to include the Two Kingdoms, Nonresistance, and other such themes in my preaching. (Pray for my abilities to communicate in the Enga language to increase!) I have also considered many times that if/when I return one day to America for good that I will preach such doctrines within an Assemblies of God church. I would certainly face opposition since the Assemblies of God is now highly militaristic. Such preaching could end up with me being blacklisted, but if that is the case, so be it. Whether the Lord will indeed lead in that direction, only time will tell.

The difficulty ordained ministers will have is that when they come to an Anabaptist faith perspective, they might no longer be able to serve as ministers since many denominations require signing a statement of faith. I have to renew my affirmation of that statement each year. Those who are not ordained ministers might have greater success as they may not be bound to affirming doctrinal statements of faith. Yet, at the same time, they will have fewer opportunities to influence congregations through preaching.
Thank you Adam- I would agree with you about many Pentecostal/Evangelical churches being unaware of the doctrines you listed within Anabaptism. In our area of Ohio, they are much more exposed to it and aware of it. ALTHOUGH- I went into a Christian bookstore that used to be in my town, several years ago, and asked if they had any books on Anabaptism- the owner said "Ma'am I've owned this bookstore (well he had TWO, this one was a satellite store) 40 years and never heard of Anabaptism". I was shocked since the largest county of Anabaptists in the world is only an hour from here. However I realized after looking around, this was a more "Catholic" bookstore than anything else, although it included other denominations books too.

We were active members in the "Foursquare Gospel" denomination which is similar to Assembly of God as you know- however they too have strayed from their original position on things like divorce & remarriage. ALL Pentecostals used to stress modesty. My mom remembers when she was in high school, the Pentecost girls could not dress in P.E. Clothes as they were shorts.

I really think the Jesus Movement of the late 60's, & all of the 70's- had A LOT to do with influencing all this- I became a Christian during this time & there was MUCH emphasis on Jesus not caring about the 'outside' (dress). Indeed the focus was on rescuing the hippies & drug culture, as well as the communal living together outside of marriage folks that the 60's had so much influence on. The thought of rescuing these folks and freeing from addictions tended to, it seem- really need to address their internal problems so focusing on 'looking like a Christian' took a back seat and then the slippery slope continued.

We discussed some of these doctrines in a 3 hour meeting with our Foursquare Gospel Pastor- especially since I had been divorced & remarried a Christian- then seeking Anabaptism learned the 'exception clause' was not seen as an 'exception clause' in Anabaptism, regarding remarriage. My pastor firmly disagreed with it. We also brought up the headcovering with him during this meeting and he honestly believed it to be 'the hair'- (because of vs 15 in 1 Cor 11)- Pastor's wife was very modest in dress and they DID try to address this issue at least at our church. They even printed in the bulletin- and we had a booklet about it at our information podium- but it was never in any sermons/messages. I see immodesty as an issue that is VERY difficult for pastors & people to address with Christians because they consider you 'judging'. A mother of 7 saw the booklet addressing modesty and she became very angry that we had that and emphatically claimed the pamphlet was too harsh & judgmental- lacking grace- My husband & I had read it and really appreciated it and was glad we put it out! However- by her complaint, it was removed. I was really discouraged about that. Apparently they are more concerned about inner issues when trying to reach the lost.

A couple years ago I watched a youtube of a pastor in some evangelical type of church who actually taught that he had done a study of the headcovering and NOW believes it is actually a 'covering' not hair- or not just for that time. He was almost apologetic while sharing, seemingly concerned he would offend the ladies of his church but this is what pastors would be up against on much of this. It would require a lot of prayer first it seems to approach these things so hearts would be fertile to receive. Even then you will get protests (especially in American churches)
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Josh
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Re: Foolish Controversies - Spurgeon on Titus 3:9

Post by Josh »

American Christianity functions on a consumer model, where people go to a religious service to consume a particular experience. For the most part, most aren't going to be part of submitting one to another in a brotherhood.

Ultimately this isn't going to matter much longer because culturally assimilated Christianity is in steep decline. Conservative and Plain Anabaptists, particularly the more conservative ones, are experiencing record setting growth. The real question is how we will handle it and how we will engage the lost, who for the most part have been failed by the mainstream Western church.
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