"Drunk in the Spirit"

[MaxPC]

Needless to say, I have seen quite a bit in my lifetime. There are many different faith groups with different worship priorities and styles. When I was a young man 70 years ago, I was very rigid in my ideas of what is right worship and wrong ways to worship. Seven decades later I can say with all sincerity, "YMMV" (Your Mileage May Vary).

God knows we struggle. God also knows our hearts. I realised later in life that God values the heart that sincerely and genuinely seeks Him. God meets us more than halfway, even when we bodge the effort.

We cannot control others and we certainly cannot control life. Yet God can, and does do both of these perfectly. We can only control ourselves.

All that we have to do is step forward and ask God for help.

[Valerie]

We know exactly what tongues. Acts 2,8-11: The dialects and tongues of the Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and those who inhabit Mesopotamia, and Judaea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, both Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya which adjoin Cyrene, and the Romans, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians.

No jibberish.

I meant to respond to this earlier but forgot.

Note these languages are what the people heard and not necessarily the language spoken and the message appears to be the same.

So, were people from all these different places running around to find someone speaking in their language or could it be that what was being spoken was being translated by God Into the language of each one there ? It isn't more difficult for God to give the speakers a certain known language then it is to take whatever they are saying and translating it so everyone understands.

I have also heard testimonies of people who have heard people pray in an unknown tongue to them yet a person over hearing them said 'how did he know perfect Mandarin ?' Here again was the miracle in the speaking or in the hearing ?

I think this leaves the door open to the possibility that they were speaking the language of angels and what was heard was worship of God in their mother tongue.

Interesting question. What is important is that someone could actually understand them. Nobody understands jibberish.

1. Cor. 11
9 Thus also ye with the tongue, unless ye give a distinct speech, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye will be speaking to the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of undistinguishable sound.

Regarding being drunk in the spirit:

2 Tim. 1,7 For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion.

Being drunk is the opposite of having wise discretion. I know it because I was drunk many times before the Lord released me from that evil habit and he strongly advises against it so why would the Holy Spirit want to put us in such a state ?

1. Cor. 14,33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.

1Corinthians 14:

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret. 28But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.

That was supposed to be how to have "order" when the Gift of Tongues" is flowing- the "Gift of Interpretation" should be present

That is how our previous Church was. It was not a Hy Roller scenario, out of order. The gift was allowed, and was just liked the passage. When someone had a tongue, the church would be silent and wait and see if there was an interpretation. This was our way of as the scripture says testing the spirit to see if they are from God. From everything we had studied about the gifts of the Spirit our church was doing exactly the way apostle Paul taught and we had blessings from that. I felt the faith was there to believe the scripture for what it teaches and the benefits of the gifts because they are called gifts!

The translation I am most familiar with is"God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, of love, and a sound mind". To me that does not say that speaking in tongues is it a play display of not being of sound mind or apostle Paul what is have been encouraging something he should not have

[Swiss Bro]

I meant to respond to this earlier but forgot.

Note these languages are what the people heard and not necessarily the language spoken and the message appears to be the same.

So, were people from all these different places running around to find someone speaking in their language or could it be that what was being spoken was being translated by God Into the language of each one there ? It isn't more difficult for God to give the speakers a certain known language then it is to take whatever they are saying and translating it so everyone understands.

I have also heard testimonies of people who have heard people pray in an unknown tongue to them yet a person over hearing them said 'how did he know perfect Mandarin ?' Here again was the miracle in the speaking or in the hearing ?

I think this leaves the door open to the possibility that they were speaking the language of angels and what was heard was worship of God in their mother tongue.

Interesting question. What is important is that someone could actually understand them. Nobody understands jibberish.

1. Cor. 11
9 Thus also ye with the tongue, unless ye give a distinct speech, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye will be speaking to the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of undistinguishable sound.

Yes, I believe this gives exact directions to not be speaking in tongues so others can hear you in the church without those tongues being interpreted.

Regarding being drunk in the spirit:

2 Tim. 1,7 For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion.

Being drunk is the opposite of having wise discretion. I know it because I was drunk many times before the Lord released me from that evil habit and he strongly advises against it so why would the Holy Spirit want to put us in such a state ?

1. Cor. 14,33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.

The Holy Spirit is not the means of 'unwise discretion' or reckless actions but rather the means reflected by Eph 5:19 where we - 'Speak to each other with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making music in your hearts to the Lord.'

What is also interesting here that some point out are that 'psalms' - were generally accompanied by an instrument and 'making melody'—Greek, "playing and singing with an instrument." Although some insist musical instruments are not referred to in NT practise the question is, was it just understood NT practise would use musical instruments in worship ? Well, perhaps this is a bit off topic.

Anyway, what often accompanies drunkenness on wine are songs what are sometimes called 'drinking songs'. I, too, have been part of this in my drinking, backsliding era. This text says the Spirit filled acts are ones that are done unto the Lord not like drinking songs that are made with a fleshly/carnal focus.

I guess we are on the same page on the above, with the caveat that I am sceptic whether the gift of tongues has not ceased altogether 1. Cor. 13,8).

The topic of instruments in worship is interesting. For me it comes down how you understand „in your hearts“ in the verse you cited. I have no definite opinion on it but would be interested to see what others think.

[JimFoxvog]

There is plenty of evidence the gift of tongues is not, at least always, gibberish. I've known several people who had heard languages spoken that they knew, but the speaker didn't. I have this old book, Spoken by the Spirit: documented accounts of "other tongues" from Arabic to Zulu, with lots of examples.

https://www.amazon.com/Spoken-Spirit-Do ... 0882437259

[Ken]

There is plenty of evidence the gift of tongues is not, at least always, gibberish. I've known several people who had heard languages spoken that they knew, but the speaker didn't. I have this old book, Spoken by the Spirit: documented accounts of "other tongues" from Arabic to Zulu, with lots of examples.

https://www.amazon.com/Spoken-Spirit-Do ... 0882437259

I looked it up. It is a 50 year old book that is long out of print and has generated a total of 5 reviews on Amazon. I don't have the book so I can't judge. But is that the best evidence available in the past 50 years? We are talking about something that routinely happens weekly in hundreds of thousands of churches around the world, many of them with services recorded and live streamed. Where is the video of a Guatemalan campesino or Kentucky coal miner speaking in perfect Arabic or Zulu in a Pentecostal church service? And even that could easily be faked. How hard is it to memorize a bible verse in a foreign language? Not hard. I expect you could memorize say John 3:16 in Arabic or Zulu in about 30 minutes if you wanted.

I mean there have probably been over 500 separate books published about Bigfoot or Sasquatch here in the Pacific Northwest during those same 50 years. My local bookstore has a whole Sasquatch section. Does that make it true? Despite all that, no one has yet captured a clear photo or video of one, found any genetic trace of one, much less found a live or dead one.

So I remain skeptical of both. In the absence of actual proof (like, for example a missionary showing up in a foreign land and being able to preach in a language that he did not know or ever study) then it remains an article of faith.

[Sudsy]

Interesting question. What is important is that someone could actually understand them. Nobody understands jibberish.

1. Cor. 11
9 Thus also ye with the tongue, unless ye give a distinct speech, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye will be speaking to the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of undistinguishable sound.

Yes, I believe this gives exact directions to not be speaking in tongues so others can hear you in the church without those tongues being interpreted.

Regarding being drunk in the spirit:

2 Tim. 1,7 For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion.

Being drunk is the opposite of having wise discretion. I know it because I was drunk many times before the Lord released me from that evil habit and he strongly advises against it so why would the Holy Spirit want to put us in such a state ?

1. Cor. 14,33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.

The Holy Spirit is not the means of 'unwise discretion' or reckless actions but rather the means reflected by Eph 5:19 where we - 'Speak to each other with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making music in your hearts to the Lord.'

What is also interesting here that some point out are that 'psalms' - were generally accompanied by an instrument and 'making melody'—Greek, "playing and singing with an instrument." Although some insist musical instruments are not referred to in NT practise the question is, was it just understood NT practise would use musical instruments in worship ? Well, perhaps this is a bit off topic.

Anyway, what often accompanies drunkenness on wine are songs what are sometimes called 'drinking songs'. I, too, have been part of this in my drinking, backsliding era. This text says the Spirit filled acts are ones that are done unto the Lord not like drinking songs that are made with a fleshly/carnal focus.

I guess we are on the same page on the above, with the caveat that I am sceptic whether the gift of tongues has not ceased altogether 1. Cor. 13,8).

The topic of instruments in worship is interesting. For me it comes down how you understand „in your hearts“ in the verse you cited. I have no definite opinion on it but would be interested to see what others think.

1 Cor 13:8 - Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Some would say if tongues have ceased, knowledge must have ceased also. Others think that which is perfect has come and that is referring to our NT. Others say if prophecy has not ceased, then we would be adding to scripture. I have problems with some of these and other arguments on how the Holy Spirit operates today involving tongues.

Personally I believe when that which is perfect has come will be when Jesus returns. Until then we all only know in part.

I am not given often to speaking in other tongues but my mom sure was. My dad was a street preacher and I don't recall him speaking in tongues although he did at least once. But mom's was used in her private prayer life and I never saw either of them doing stuff not in the scripture that some believe are things brought on by the 'freedom in the Spirit'.

I think some believe freedom in the Spirit allows you to act in ways not specifically found in scripture. IMO, this can leave the door open to the influence of the flesh and/or other spirits. One of the spiritual gifts is the discernment of spirits. Perhaps that gift is needed to be sought much more than it is.

[Valerie]

There is plenty of evidence the gift of tongues is not, at least always, gibberish. I've known several people who had heard languages spoken that they knew, but the speaker didn't. I have this old book, Spoken by the Spirit: documented accounts of "other tongues" from Arabic to Zulu, with lots of examples.

https://www.amazon.com/Spoken-Spirit-Do ... 0882437259

I looked it up. It is a 50 year old book that is long out of print and has generated a total of 5 reviews on Amazon. I don't have the book so I can't judge. But is that the best evidence available in the past 50 years? We are talking about something that routinely happens weekly in hundreds of thousands of churches around the world, many of them with services recorded and live streamed. Where is the video of a Guatemalan campesino or Kentucky coal miner speaking in perfect Arabic or Zulu in a Pentecostal church service? And even that could easily be faked. How hard is it to memorize a bible verse in a foreign language? Not hard. I expect you could memorize say John 3:16 in Arabic or Zulu in about 30 minutes if you wanted.

I mean there have probably been over 500 separate books published about Bigfoot or Sasquatch here in the Pacific Northwest during those same 50 years. My local bookstore has a whole Sasquatch section. Does that make it true? Despite all that, no one has yet captured a clear photo or video of one, found any genetic trace of one, much less found a live or dead one.

So I remain skeptical of both. In the absence of actual proof (like, for example a missionary showing up in a foreign land and being able to preach in a language that he did not know or ever study) then it remains an article of faith.

Pretty sure the Holy Spirit is quenched in an environment of skepticism, unbelief (regarding the Gifts) and since they are "Gifts" and Apostle Paul encouraged them, albeit counterfeit & false exist, in an environment of a healthy Church with faith & appreciation for them, it allows the Holy Spirit to manifest.

The "drunk" in the Spirit we were seeing was part of why we left the Pentecost/Charismatic denomination, to us it seemed just weird

[Ken]

If you actually read Acts 2 you find that three things happened.

First, there was a violent sound of blowing wind that filled the house
Second, tongues of fire descended from heaven and touched all of them
Third, they preached of God in the actual foreign languages of the the various diverse peoples who were in the capital city of Jerusalem at that time. It was not jibberish. People could understand the words of God in their own diverse languages.

To my knowledge, none of these three things actually happens in Pentecostal churches. This is the relevant scripture from Acts 2 (NIV)

1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

[Neto]

If you actually read Acts 2 you find that three things happened.

First, there was a violent sound of blowing wind that filled the house
Second, tongues of fire descended from heaven and touched all of them
Third, they preached of God in the actual foreign languages of the the various diverse peoples who were in the capital city of Jerusalem at that time. It was not jibberish. People could understand the words of God in their own diverse languages.

To my knowledge, none of these three things actually happens in Pentecostal churches. This is the relevant scripture from Acts 2 (NIV)

1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

There are also later instances of speaking in tongues (also recorded in the book of the Acts) where there is no mention of anyone being present who understood what was being said.

Many things that are real works of the Holy God are also faked, or even imitated for real. There are other criteria (in Scripture) for determining when something like this is from God, and when it is from Satan. (Example: Many of the signs performed by Moses were also done, for real, by the Egyptian shamans.)

[ken_sylvania]

What is also interesting here that some point out are that 'psalms' - were generally accompanied by an instrument and 'making melody'—Greek, "playing and singing with an instrument." Although some insist musical instruments are not referred to in NT practise the question is, was it just understood NT practise would use musical instruments in worship ? Well, perhaps this is a bit off topic.

I don't think most Mennonites would have a big problem with you "playing and singing with an instrument" in your heart, as the text says the "making melody" is to be done.