"Drunk in the Spirit"

[Ken]

There are plenty of videos on YouTube taken in churches where people are supposedly speaking in tongues. Should we watch some and see if we can come to any conclusions?

No. Rather find a church where speaking in tongues is used according to scripture and discern if this is of God or not. I don't suggest YouTube as a good resource to observe speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance.

I agree, however I didn't have success in that search. After I was not allowed to return to the anti-tongues Bible Institute where I attended my first year, I transferred to a C&MA Bible College, where it was allowed. A couple of friends from the Bible Institute also ended up at the same school, also not allowed to return to the first school. (Neither of us knew where the other was going to go. In fact, I went back to the Bible Institute for registration, and asked if I could return. The conditions they gave made it impossible, so my folks drove me on up north to the C&MA school, and they accepted me. Well, actually, I wasn't officially accepted in that school until after the second semester started. I hadn't applied before I showed up there for the Fall semester, because I thought I could get back in the first school by making some concessions. My pastor was on a Summer mission trip to the Old Colony folks in Mexico, so I hadn't been able to consult with him again before I headed off to college. Later he told me that it would not have been right to make the concessions I had in mind.)

But as to finding a congregation that openly uses tongues publicly in their services, I didn't find one that followed Scripture, and this other couple got tired of asking me to come with them, because on the drive back to the school I *always" pointed out something where they had not followed Scripture. Usually it was either one person interrupting another who was already speaking, or even interrupting the pastor during the sermon, or giving utterance when there was no interpretation.) So what I found is that the best course (as it seemed to me) was to find a congregation where it was neither misused, nor spoken against, as being "of the devil". The one I enjoyed the most was one called "The New Testament Church". When you walked in, there were not groups here and there talking about the weather, their jobs, or how busy they were, etc. There were instead little groups of people praying together, or jumping up and down, as a dance before the Lord. But there were other areas where I thought they went too far, like waiting for a prophetic utterance before they could decide on the color of carpet to have installed. The worst was a prayer group back home in Tulsa, where there was just this strong creepiness that I noticed immediately when I walked in. I never went back, although another member of our MB congregation encouraged me to go with him again.

To sum this up, what I found was that there tended to be an "exclusiveness" about the congregations that put an emphasis on this gift, and that those that were simply open to it, especially in private or corporate prayer times - those settings were more 'joyful', in some deeper sense. (And, there was no pressure to "make it or fake it" in those settings. If you had that gift, you used it, if you had a different one, you used that one.)

I actually have seen Pentecostal services and speaking in tongues many many times in person. Back in the late 1980s when I was living and working in rural Guatemala my house backed up against a small Pentecostal church. In the subtropics, churches are often not much more than open air pavilions with no walls and so no more than 50 feet away from my back door was an open-air Pentecostal church separated only by a loose corn stalk and madre de cacao fence. So every Sunday afternoon and often on weekday evenings I could hear them going to town with the "hellfire and brimstone" sermons, the speaking in tongues, the singing, and everything else, completely unfiltered. Sometimes for hours on end.

Do I think it was jibberish? Yes. Although Spanish and Cakchiquel-accented jibberish rather than the English-accented kind that we get here.

Do I think they were faking it? No. Maybe some but not most. I think humans are highly suggestable and if you are desperately seeking to experience something you might well convince yourself that you are. There are all kinds of psychological terms for that. People of every religion can work themselves into a frenzy. Muslims, Hindus, Bahai, Buddhists, Navaho, etc. Do I think that is all fakery? No. I expect many people feel those experiences are real. I don't, however think it is actually Biblical and a sign that the Holy Spirit is actually speaking through someone in tongues.

Maybe if we actually had some Guatemalan peasant, or Pentecostal from backwoods Kentucky who was seen and recorded speaking God's message and words in fluent ancient Aramaic or Hittite or Babylonian or some other ancient language. Or even a modern language that they didn't already know. Then I might be more convinced. But as far as I know, that has never happened.

[Neto]

No. Rather find a church where speaking in tongues is used according to scripture and discern if this is of God or not. I don't suggest YouTube as a good resource to observe speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance.

I agree, however I didn't have success in that search. After I was not allowed to return to the anti-tongues Bible Institute where I attended my first year, I transferred to a C&MA Bible College, where it was allowed. A couple of friends from the Bible Institute also ended up at the same school, also not allowed to return to the first school. (Neither of us knew where the other was going to go. In fact, I went back to the Bible Institute for registration, and asked if I could return. The conditions they gave made it impossible, so my folks drove me on up north to the C&MA school, and they accepted me. Well, actually, I wasn't officially accepted in that school until after the second semester started. I hadn't applied before I showed up there for the Fall semester, because I thought I could get back in the first school by making some concessions. My pastor was on a Summer mission trip to the Old Colony folks in Mexico, so I hadn't been able to consult with him again before I headed off to college. Later he told me that it would not have been right to make the concessions I had in mind.)

But as to finding a congregation that openly uses tongues publicly in their services, I didn't find one that followed Scripture, and this other couple got tired of asking me to come with them, because on the drive back to the school I *always" pointed out something where they had not followed Scripture. Usually it was either one person interrupting another who was already speaking, or even interrupting the pastor during the sermon, or giving utterance when there was no interpretation.) So what I found is that the best course (as it seemed to me) was to find a congregation where it was neither misused, nor spoken against, as being "of the devil". The one I enjoyed the most was one called "The New Testament Church". When you walked in, there were not groups here and there talking about the weather, their jobs, or how busy they were, etc. There were instead little groups of people praying together, or jumping up and down, as a dance before the Lord. But there were other areas where I thought they went too far, like waiting for a prophetic utterance before they could decide on the color of carpet to have installed. The worst was a prayer group back home in Tulsa, where there was just this strong creepiness that I noticed immediately when I walked in. I never went back, although another member of our MB congregation encouraged me to go with him again.

To sum this up, what I found was that there tended to be an "exclusiveness" about the congregations that put an emphasis on this gift, and that those that were simply open to it, especially in private or corporate prayer times - those settings were more 'joyful', in some deeper sense. (And, there was no pressure to "make it or fake it" in those settings. If you had that gift, you used it, if you had a different one, you used that one.)

I actually have seen Pentecostal services and speaking in tongues many many times in person. Back in the late 1980s when I was living and working in rural Guatemala my house backed up against a small Pentecostal church. In the subtropics, churches are often not much more than open air pavilions with no walls and so no more than 50 feet away from my back door was an open-air Pentecostal church separated only by a corn stalk and madre de cacao fence. So every Sunday afternoon and often on weekday evenings I could hear them going to town with the "hellfire and brimstone" sermons, the speaking in tongues, the singing, and everything else, completely unfiltered. Sometimes for hours on end.

Do I think it was jibberish? Yes. Although Spanish and Cakchiquel-accented jibberish rather than the English-accented kind that we get here.

Do I think they were faking it? No. Maybe some but not most. I think humans are highly suggestable and if you are desperately seeking to experience something you might well convince yourself that you are. There are all kinds of psychological terms for that. People of every religion can work themselves into a frenzy. Muslims, Hindus, Bahai, Buddhists, Navaho, etc. Do I think that is all fakery? No. I expect many people feel those experiences are real. I don't, however think it is actually Biblical and a sign that the Holy Spirit is actually speaking through someone in tongues.

Maybe if we actually had some Guatemalan peasant, or Pentecostal from backwoods Kentucky who was seen and recorded speaking God's message and words in fluent ancient Aramaic or Hittite or Babylonian or some other ancient language. Or even a modern language that they didn't already know. Then I might be more convinced. But as far as I know, that has never happened.

A Brazilian linguist I know did phonetic analyses of recordings he made of tongues speakers, both in Brazil, and here in the States (while he was doing either his Masters or Doctorate, I think). His observations were similar to yours, in that he did not find any phonemes which were not a part of the native language of the speaker. In my own case, I could never listen to what I was saying - if I tried to, it stopped. (And I don't think I had any kind of recorder back then, either.) If I think of speaking in tongues now, I just start praying in one of the other languages I know well. Some would say "Use it or loose it", and that I lost the gift because I neglected it. Possibly so, but I also think that God used that experience to teach me to stop saying "It is of the devil", as I in fact did, prior to my own experience. In our tribal allocation we worked along side a Brazilian Pentecostal couple, and worked with others from their mission, JOCUM (the Brazilian branch of YWAM), and often attended a Pentecostal church while not in the village. (We went there because it was close, we knew the pastor and some of the members outside of Sunday meetings, and nearly all of the members were very poor 'back water Brazilians', and so taking Indians there was more practical than to a church in the city - the state capitol, in fact.) I don't see how I could have possibly gotten along with these other missionaries had I still been convinced that it was all the devil's work. (And in the early years the Banawa intentionally tried to play us against one another, telling them that WE spoke the language perfectly, and telling US the same thing about them.)

This may all sound like I really think it is all fake, but I don't. I do feel, however, that in those congregations where it is considered a "sign of the Holy Spirit baptism", there are many people who struggle with self-doubts, and even emotional problems, because at some level they do really know that they are faking it, just to meet the expectations of their fellow church members. I will also say that this attitude that "You have to have this gift, and if you don't, there's something wrong in your spiritual life." occurs not only in the context of speaking in tongues, but with the other gifts as well. As one who does not have the "gift of evangelism", or the "gift of leadership", I see this attitude in some who have those gifts (people in whom I SEE those gifts at work). It is natural to want everyone to experience the things that bless you the most. I have known some preachers like that, too. (Not that they try to get everyone to preach, but just that it really blesses them to be preaching.) We can (and should) do most of these things even if we do not have that special depth of ability in that area, but there is a difference that one can see when a Christian just allows God to use them in whatever capacity He chooses.

[Sudsy]

That today in 2023 the Holy Spirit doesn’t actually lead people to speak in jibberish or wreath around on the floor in a facsimile of a grand mal seizure.

OK. I get what you're saying. And I agree with the latter sentiment- as I don't recall anyone in the Bible getting a grand mal seizure when they received the Spirit.

However, the "jibberish" part, I take issue with. "Of men and Angels" - Paul says. Just because it isn't a human language doesn't mean it's without meaning. Who knows what tongue the Disciples were speaking in on Pentecost, wherein every man who heard them heard them in their native tongue. I wouldn't be so quick to judge that...

We know exactly what tongues. Acts 2,8-11: The dialects and tongues of the Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and those who inhabit Mesopotamia, and Judaea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, both Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya which adjoin Cyrene, and the Romans, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians.

No jibberish.

I meant to respond to this earlier but forgot.

Note these languages are what the people heard and not necessarily the language spoken and the message appears to be the same.

So, were people from all these different places running around to find someone speaking in their language or could it be that what was being spoken was being translated by God Into the language of each one there ? It isn't more difficult for God to give the speakers a certain known language then it is to take whatever they are saying and translating it so everyone understands.

I have also heard testimonies of people who have heard people pray in an unknown tongue to them yet a person over hearing them said 'how did he know perfect Mandarin ?' Here again was the miracle in the speaking or in the hearing ?

I think this leaves the door open to the possibility that they were speaking the language of angels and what was heard was worship of God in their mother tongue.

[Outsider]

This is what happens when you ignore scripture and rely only on the Spirit. Consider: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=DRA

So are you saying these groups are relying on the Holy Spirit?

No. I don't think these displays are led by the Spirit. However, even the gifts of the Spirit can be used in an improper or disorderly way. I'm hesitant to judge anything other than the way it's being used.

[Outsider]

Thankyou, I forgot about this occurrence. I will look into commentaries about this and see what they may have to say. On the surface I don't believe it was a lack of faith on Jesus part on His first acts to heal. I will study this more.

I didn't mean it was lack of faith on the part of Jesus. God forbid! It was the weakness of the faith in the man being healed.

Mat 13:58

58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

[Outsider]

However, the "jibberish" part, I take issue with. "Of men and Angels" - Paul says. Just because it isn't a human language doesn't mean it's without meaning. Who knows what tongue the Disciples were speaking in on Pentecost, wherein every man who heard them heard them in their native tongue. I wouldn't be so quick to judge that...

There are plenty of videos on YouTube taken in churches where people are supposedly speaking in tongues. Should we watch some and see if we can come to any conclusions?

I think people's faith is much weaker in our time than it was in the time of Paul. Great swathes of the population (thanks to technology- the lying wonder) give no credit to anything supernatural or to any god (the man of sin). Many churches, including the denomination I was brought up in, believe that "the age of miracles is OVER!" and that all the spiritual gifts have passed the way of the Dodo bird. And all the gifts of the spirit- their power, their usefulness- is by a measure of faith.

[Swiss Bro]

OK. I get what you're saying. And I agree with the latter sentiment- as I don't recall anyone in the Bible getting a grand mal seizure when they received the Spirit.

However, the "jibberish" part, I take issue with. "Of men and Angels" - Paul says. Just because it isn't a human language doesn't mean it's without meaning. Who knows what tongue the Disciples were speaking in on Pentecost, wherein every man who heard them heard them in their native tongue. I wouldn't be so quick to judge that...

We know exactly what tongues. Acts 2,8-11: The dialects and tongues of the Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and those who inhabit Mesopotamia, and Judaea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, both Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya which adjoin Cyrene, and the Romans, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians.

No jibberish.

I meant to respond to this earlier but forgot.

Note these languages are what the people heard and not necessarily the language spoken and the message appears to be the same.

So, were people from all these different places running around to find someone speaking in their language or could it be that what was being spoken was being translated by God Into the language of each one there ? It isn't more difficult for God to give the speakers a certain known language then it is to take whatever they are saying and translating it so everyone understands.

I have also heard testimonies of people who have heard people pray in an unknown tongue to them yet a person over hearing them said 'how did he know perfect Mandarin ?' Here again was the miracle in the speaking or in the hearing ?

I think this leaves the door open to the possibility that they were speaking the language of angels and what was heard was worship of God in their mother tongue.

Interesting question. What is important is that someone could actually understand them. Nobody understands jibberish.

1. Cor. 11
9 Thus also ye with the tongue, unless ye give a distinct speech, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye will be speaking to the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of undistinguishable sound.

Regarding being drunk in the spirit:

2 Tim. 1,7 For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion.

Being drunk is the opposite of having wise discretion. I know it because I was drunk many times before the Lord released me from that evil habit and he strongly advises against it so why would the Holy Spirit want to put us in such a state ?

1. Cor. 14,33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.

[temporal1]

Outsider:
I think people's faith is much weaker in our time than it was in the time of Paul.

i expect this is correct.
Unbelief is now institutionalized, wholesale funded by the Public Treasury, protected+promoted by force of the sword.

(i believe) the major turn away from seeking answers first in God began in mid-60’s, with good intentions.
(i believe) the 80’s fast-tracked unbelief as response to HIV-AIDS, definitely with good intentions.

In former times, people, by nature, turned to the supernatural, including paganism, on their knees begging for mercy.
This was a partnership of submission to the supernatural, WITH serious introspection.

Example: “Dear God, if you will show me grace at this time, i will turn away from my sins to submit to your will.”

Today, no introspection or willingness to submit to God’s will. The very concept of submission is formally hated.
Intead, the opposite! Pride. Devotion to sin. Institutionalized, funded, protected and promoted by force of the sword.

It began before computers.

Worship of self as god.
Turning to gov for all answers, from the smallest, most personal+intimate, then, barring none.

Swiss bro:
.. why would the Holy Spirit want to put us in such a state ? ..

He wouldn’t.
(i understand) these words 1) to be used as a colorful analogy that folks would recognize, the euphoria of being drunk,
but, drunk in righteousness, not evil; and, 2) the reference was made by unbelievers not understanding what they witnessed.
No one understands until/unless the Holy Spirit blesses them to understand.

of course, there are those who are ready+willing to exploit. discernment is key. sin is such a liar.
pray for discernment which comes from the HS.

[Sudsy]

Thankyou, I forgot about this occurrence. I will look into commentaries about this and see what they may have to say. On the surface I don't believe it was a lack of faith on Jesus part on His first acts to heal. I will study this more.

I didn't mean it was lack of faith on the part of Jesus. God forbid! It was the weakness of the faith in the man being healed.

Mat 13:58

58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

And I didn't mean to suggest that you thought it could be a lack of faith on Jesus part but rather I was ruling this out if anyone did think this, which you agree. I should have explained myself better.

However, I'm not yet convinced that this two step miracle was the man's faith blocking the miracle from happening on Jesus first healing act . I'm still going to look into commentaries on this perhaps today.

Thanks for your involvement. Very much appreciated to get to talk about scripture texts and how others interpret them.

[Sudsy]

We know exactly what tongues. Acts 2,8-11: The dialects and tongues of the Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and those who inhabit Mesopotamia, and Judaea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, both Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya which adjoin Cyrene, and the Romans, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians.

No jibberish.

I meant to respond to this earlier but forgot.

Note these languages are what the people heard and not necessarily the language spoken and the message appears to be the same.

So, were people from all these different places running around to find someone speaking in their language or could it be that what was being spoken was being translated by God Into the language of each one there ? It isn't more difficult for God to give the speakers a certain known language then it is to take whatever they are saying and translating it so everyone understands.

I have also heard testimonies of people who have heard people pray in an unknown tongue to them yet a person over hearing them said 'how did he know perfect Mandarin ?' Here again was the miracle in the speaking or in the hearing ?

I think this leaves the door open to the possibility that they were speaking the language of angels and what was heard was worship of God in their mother tongue.

Interesting question. What is important is that someone could actually understand them. Nobody understands jibberish.

1. Cor. 11
9 Thus also ye with the tongue, unless ye give a distinct speech, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye will be speaking to the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of undistinguishable sound.

Yes, I believe this gives exact directions to not be speaking in tongues so others can hear you in the church without those tongues being interpreted.

Regarding being drunk in the spirit:

2 Tim. 1,7 For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion.

Being drunk is the opposite of having wise discretion. I know it because I was drunk many times before the Lord released me from that evil habit and he strongly advises against it so why would the Holy Spirit want to put us in such a state ?

1. Cor. 14,33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.

The Holy Spirit is not the means of 'unwise discretion' or reckless actions but rather the means reflected by Eph 5:19 where we - 'Speak to each other with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making music in your hearts to the Lord.'

What is also interesting here that some point out are that 'psalms' - were generally accompanied by an instrument and 'making melody'—Greek, "playing and singing with an instrument." Although some insist musical instruments are not referred to in NT practise the question is, was it just understood NT practise would use musical instruments in worship ? Well, perhaps this is a bit off topic.

Anyway, what often accompanies drunkenness on wine are songs what are sometimes called 'drinking songs'. I, too, have been part of this in my drinking, backsliding era. This text says the Spirit filled acts are ones that are done unto the Lord not like drinking songs that are made with a fleshly/carnal focus.